MATF Minutes 31 January 2018

*MATF Minutes 31 January 2018 link: * 
https://www.w3.org/2019/01/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html*

*


  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference


    31 Jan 2019


    Attendees

Present
    MarcJohlic, kim, Kathy, Shadi
Regrets

Chair
    Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
    kim


    Contents

  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
     1. touch target thoughts
        <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
     2. combining focus element and the one below it
        <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
     3. states discernible
        <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>


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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wRAViPfAJ4Ytqc71tGZp6gU07HNd2QQaNgtJsog-D90/edit?usp=sharing


      touch target thoughts

Kathy: David saying using touch inside
... if the targets are potentially together you're still going to 
potentially get inside one of them or not but it does change to a 
certain extent – it could be a technique that we use in conjunction. It 
might mean that we could have less pixels potentially in between the 
targets if you're just looking inside. So you wouldn't have the pixels 
that are right around the target. I haven't thought it through 
completely. It's an interesting thing I hadn't hea[CUT]

Marc: even if you're doing such inside if the two targets are beside 
each other it still poses the problem of the finger accurately hitting 
them. If I go toward the edge of button a I still might be touching 
inside of button b at the same time
... touch inside is probably the way to go anyway

Kathy: Jim said small icon spacing shouldn't be more than half, larger 
quarter to 1/2 is recommended. We're definitely less than that – If we 
look at half icon at 16 x 16 pixels – I haven't seen things smaller than 
that generally in a site. Have you seen lesst?n
... I was looking at things like small next and previous button.
... I found that even those – the ones that I saw were 34 x 34. It 
didn't get smaller than that, and that was a little tiny icon. I didn't 
do an extensive search overall
... I'm using Emulator in Chrome – also looking
... if we take what Jim has said, for usability space should be half of 
the icon size I'm trying to get small icons and get an idea across the 
web. Even the search icon was 25 x 25 pixels and that was really really 
tiny overall
... since we are saying eight pixels in between this would fail if we 
had an icon less than 16 x 16 Pixels, but I haven't found an icon where 
an icon was the only thing used and it was smaller than that. With text 
sometimes smaller than that. Even next and previous on a slider control. 
I also looked at hamburger menus, three bar type things. Even those the 
smallest I saw was 20 x 20.

Marc: 20 x 50, 20 x 60 for hamburger. Social media. Even the little dot 
icons were typically 15 pixels. That would be a scenario where we might 
actually have an icon that if we had eight pixels in between it would be 
breaking that but it was so minor. Most of those where you have dots for 
each of the slider controls, that little dot
... kebab menus might be the smallest thing
... I go off on these native tangents in this working group all the 
time. So when we were just talking about touch Inside his native only. 
Kebab menus – I don't know if I've ever seen that on a website. You see 
it all the time in the settings so it applies to native stuff.
... so it may not come into play
... tiny little lock icon on the Wells Fargo site is still 20 x 20. That 
might be the smallest that exists in the real world. Just randomly 
saying right now it seems like people are sticking in the 40 range

Kathy: it seems like 24 x 24 is the minimum that people are doing for 
active icons
... I guess the bottom line is I don't think the pixels criteria needs 
to be changed based on what Jim had put out there – he wasn't saying it 
needed to be, he was just putting it in some bounds.
... ambiguous wording – I'd be worried from a usability standpoint if we 
started saying that people needed to have a huge amount between the 
different icons. Decreasing usability. There's a fine balance


      combining focus element and the one below it

Kathy: similar issue – all about managing focus and having the focus go 
back to where it should be or where it's logical. And on mobile this 
tends to be an issue because you lose your spot and then If you're 
swiping you got it all over the place
... in one instance I saw this week the focus didn't go into the menu, 
so you can't find it
... question is does this fit anywhere under WCAG right now or should we 
have another SC to talk about focus management
... we've got all functionality available through keyboard interface. 
But it doesn't say anything about a logical place. We've got on focused 
order and on input.
... focus order is closest. Focus order preserves meaning and operability
... whole focus management could fit under that, and then technique
... Focus when zooming – could have a technique
... inserting content into a document object model – that's one where if 
you have a mobile dialog you can tap into a controller if you have a 
drop-down menu inserting it putting it in a correct place so you don't 
need to maintain the tab order
... in my mind both of these could fit underneath that

Marc: they're all under the bullet of changing a page dynamically using 
those techniques – this would fall under dynamic Changing of the page. 
So just having a technique under here could make that work
... I'm hesitant because you can say that's not what the SC is saying. 
But the technique is there guiding you to do it this way so that works

Kathy: the SC says that if it can Be navigated sequentially – focus 
preserves meaning and operability
... if something gets removed from the screen or hidden it can't lose focus
... you could argue that hidden or lose focus does not preserve the 
meaning and operability, because you'd have to start again at the top of 
the page
... looking at examples
... example that's adding content.
... I think these could both be different scenarios underneath what is 
currently there. It does talk about maintaining contacts for things that 
are being added to the screen. It doesn't necessarily talk about things 
being removed from the screen. But that fits directly under there

Marc: I think you're right

1

I agree – always good to think about similar things in one chunk

Kathy: so put of these will be techniques under 2.4.3


      states discernible

Kathy: wondering how much this overlaps with what low vision is doing
... contrast and affordanc andmy read iss if there isn't visual 
information present this doesn't apply.
... when we have an active control there is an affordance – the state of 
that is known.
... the second part is the on off different states we have through the 
different controls
... 1.4.1.11 boundaries and sufficient contrast

Marc: other than that what would you do

Kathy: I've Seen designers not have any affordance

Marc: that design where there's no indication if there's a button or not 
stinks for everyone

Kathy: directly impacts low-vision and cognitive users more
... difficult to make an exhaustive list – with design everything 
changes year to year
... they be the next step is to go to the low vision task force or maybe 
everybody coga, low vision mobile together to discuss this one in general
... every actionable control needs to have some sort of visual indicator 
that says it's accessible
... that's the gist of it, but that so broad

Marc: do I now keep my text button and put dash in front of it

Kathy: that's so broad. I don't think we could list out what would make 
it actionable

Marc: hard enough to get people to underline links – color contrast 
versus that
... we just need to come up with the guidelines for an actionable control

Kathy: outstanding question is this accessibility versus usability

Marc: wall of text without underlines or color usability

ACTION Kim to send question to low-vision and Coga

<trackbot> Created ACTION-72 - Send question to low-vision and coga [on 
Kimberly Patch - due 2019-02-07].


    Summary of Action Items


    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2019/01/31 17:40:57
___________________________________________________

Kimberly Patch

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

PatchonTech.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
@PatchonTech
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________