MATF Minutes 24 January 2018

*MATF Minutes 24 January 2018 link: * 
https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html*
**
Action items:
*[NEW] ACTION: Chris to research custom gestures breaking webpage AT
[NEW] ACTION: Kathy to see where voice recognition authentication 
applications are
[NEW] ACTION: Kim send proposal for spacing between touch targets to 
low-vision task force for feedback
[NEW] ACTION: Shadi to also reach out about where voice recognition 
authentication applications are

*Full te**xt of the minutes:
*


  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference


    24 Jan 2019


    Attendees

Present
    Kathy, JakeAbma, kim, Detlev, Shadi
Regrets
    Marc
Chair
    Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
    kim


    Contents

  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
     1. spacing between touch targets
        <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
     2. Custom Gestures (line 7)
        <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
     3. biometrics (line 8)
        <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>


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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wRAViPfAJ4Ytqc71tGZp6gU07HNd2QQaNgtJsog-D90/edit?usp=sharing


      spacing between touch targets

Kathy: the thinking was a minimum touch target size would help people 
have trouble with keyboards and also low-vision. A lot of the guidelines 
two pixels away from target size. I haven't seen any new research about 
minimum spacing between touch targets
... has anybody seen research about minimum spacing between touch targets

Jake: I've seen some best practices of not putting the targets to close 
together but specifically when the targets are not large
... this should be something like when it's less than 44 x 44 then you 
need to have that spacing between

<Kathy> https://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1085

Jake: I know I've read also from android specification – they mention it 
but just like the 44 it's a best practice
... if you see their own applications for websites they don't always do 
it themselves. According to my recollection it's between one and eight 
pixels

Kathy: I misspoke earlier – I meant to milliliters which is about eight 
pixels
... 1 mm is good for an index finger and 2 mm for some users. But it's 
fairly old research
... trying to see if it's feasible to have a minimum spacing between 
touch targets rather than touch target size
... that might be easier than minimum size. Get something in at AA
... we don't have any real data untouched target size other than what 
was published a long time ago.
... draft proposal – use the 8 mm number that is out there android, 
Nokia and then the MIT study also found the same kind of guidance as far 
as touch target. Any thoughts or concerns – is this implementable if we 
went that route?

Chris: I'm trying to think of the views that I've seen that would 
require changing because of the success criteria. I can't think of any 
apps that I've used from day-to-day that would require modification 
because of this.
... maybe one is the old-style Google play had a play button that was 
really small and would've had to have reasonable separation to the field 
next to it.
... what I'm ultimately questioning is the prevalence, not the relevance

Kathy: you see this a lot in menus, cancel, continue – those are the 
areas this would be helpful. I haven't seen this where you would need it 
in paragraphs of text, which is where they had a lot of challenges the 
last time with getting the minimum touch size.

Jake: this would be exactly the same problem as touch targets – in-line 
in one paragraph and you have a responsive website you end up with the 
same extension here. That's the negative side, the plus side is if you 
say 44 x 44 if they do want to have their interactive elements next to 
each other you get the 44 x 44 size for free

Chris: we encourage adherence to the AAA requirements so that they don't 
have to adhere to the AA requirement

Jake: yes, they have to have space if they want to build at the right 
size they get that for free. But if just in-line links – we have to 
check it out. Maybe most of the time it isn't a problem if you have 
enough line height

Kathy: what is the typical paragraphing between paragraphs? All of the 
style guides I've reviewed – most of them have pixels between the 
different sentences, line height. if you survey different sites how many 
of them fall into that already

Chris: spacing is a percentage of font size

Jake: if I look at just regular links without specific adjustments for 
the links – padding or border. I don't see even one pixel between.

Kathy: there are pixels between text otherwise you'd be butting up 
against the next character

Jake: it's not more than four I think

Chris: 12 point font I think it's 25% of font size so 12 point font 
would be three or four. I think that's what Jake is seeing. I don't know 
if it defines its own spacing that I would have to look up.

Kathy: so we would still have to have exclusions for paragraphs, but I 
don't think as many exclusions as we have for the AAA

Chris: eight pixels – is that CSS pixels still. Are we going for 1 mm?

Jake: I think CSS pixels

<Kathy> 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/design/touch-target-size

Kathy: I'm looking at the BBC mobile accessibility guideline. They have 
provide padding .5 EM and one EM
... .5 EM is approximately eight pixels
... their example is in the main navigation
... do we have any success criteria that has a condition – if this, then 
you have to do that

Chris: maybe controls that do not

Jake: 1.4.5 if audio
... if keyboard trap, if keyboard shortcuts

Kathy"If the target for pointer inputs is less than 44 by 44 CSS pixels 
then there is a minmum of 8 CSS pixels between targets except when 
Inline The target is in a sentence or block of text; Essential A 
particular presentation of the target is essential to the information 
being conveyed."

<scribe> *ACTION:* send proposal for spacing between touch targets to 
low-vision task force for feedback

<trackbot> Error finding 'send'. You can review and register nicknames 
at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.

<scribe> *ACTION:* Kim send proposal for spacing between touch targets 
to low-vision task force for feedback

<trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Send proposal for spacing between touch 
targets to low-vision task force for feedback [on Kimberly Patch - due 
2019-01-31].


      Custom Gestures (line 7)

Chris: both platforms are going to allow you to break this in different 
ways – gestures and breaking the ability to interact with the screen reader.
... VoiceOver and iOS: invoice over there's a tree that says to the 
assistive technology passed gestures through to me
... signature, if you need to go in and sign those gestures need to be 
passed through – voiceover capturing a signature is meaningless
... times when I can picture this being a bad thing this hypothetical 
signature area took up a significant portion of the screen such that 
there wasfor a talkback user to swipe to right or left to move focus 
forward anymore – this would be a very bad scenario
... from a blind users perspective talkback is trapped, they are stuck
... in android we can't pass through but we can implement complex 
gesture. draw a curly cue gesture to implement blank
... if you wanted to do this, what you would have is a thing within that 
application that you are not able to accomplish within assistive 
technology. Those are the two issues
... one is going to be more prevalent in iOS the other in android just 
because of the ease of setting up custom gestures and android
... the custom gestures are going to be a native specific problem just 
because the web is very very far from having people do custom gesture 
type of thing. Signature pad has the potential to be a web issue. I 
don't know a website off the top of my head that does that but some of 
the apps that implement signature pads are HTML 5 hybrid application.
... if a hybrid can do it a web app can do it it's just a matter of time 
before someone decides to make that a reality.

Jake: if you force a specific movement or touch with JavaScript will 
this always go well when you turn on your voiceover – or is it possible 
you will end up in a conflict?

Chris: if you are forcing a gesture in JavaScript on an HTML page it 
just says pretend like this event occured. So the AT is not even going 
to be aware of that

Kathy: so maybe this one is more of a native app issue and we should 
look at it more for silver instead of 2.2

Chris: I'd roughly agree with that but I'd like to look to see if anyone 
has started implementing signatures in webpages yet
... I know I've seen web components that have the capability of doing 
that. The part that would be the disconnect would be how does a mobile 
browser and assistive technology deal with the fact that there is a 
drawing space in a webpage and does that actually bubble through to the 
point where the assistive technology is ignored? Or is this just 
something that will only work in a web environment because of the way 
it's implemented.
... I can do that research very quickly
... in iOS potentially breaking voiceover from functioning, in android 
opposite – I will research

<scribe> *ACTION:* Chris to research custom gestures breaking webpage AT

<trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Research custom gestures breaking webpage 
at [on Chris McMeeking - due 2019-01-31].


      biometrics (line 8)

Shadi: need alternative to biometrics

Kathy: are there examples on the web today where biometrics are being 
used on mobile sites

Shadi: so far usually built in the operating system, example face 
recognition. It's theoretically conceivable that it could be part of the 
website itself
... maybe a banking transaction, but I don't know an actual real example

Jake: you mean a website that uses fingerprint ID?

Shadi: Apple pay you can use fingerprints but that's on the operating system

<Detlev> sorry to be so late...

Shadi: fingerprints aren't captured directly by the third party or the 
website

Kathy: voice recognition matching to verify that you are who you say you 
are – some banking sites. That might be an example. Fingerprinting and 
voice recognition are two things where I've seen some talk about putting 
it into a website and a web app. I haven't actually seen examples.

Shadi: recently asked to hold the passport – it was a human on the other 
side but you see it's possible

Kathy: anything else on the biometrics – should we put something there 
right now if we don't have any examples
... or should we move this to silver

Shadi: we need implementation to demonstrate, so need examples

Kathy: I'll touch base with – voice recognition is being looked at right 
now. If they are actually going to be doing it than that may be an 
example we can use
... other than that I don't know of anybody who's actually doing it

Detlev: on the iPhone you get suggestions to put in your password 
automatically when it detects your face but that something that is 
always in addition to normal input

Kathy: that's OS based
... I put a note in here that we should put in implementation examples. 
If we can't find any I think we should move it to silver

Shadi: I do think it's coming. Voice recognition face recognition just 
to make it easier – authentication is an issue, and people are trying to 
find ways around that. But maybe not for quite a while because of the 
security – so maybe it is better for silver

Kathy: I think it's worth keeping on the list though. It's deftly 
something we're going to need down the road.

Detlev: even if it's iOS driven is there something the author can do to 
preclude – offer on the alternative

Kim: agree, but need to know more about how close it is before deciding 
whether it's better for silver

Shadi: it's a matter of time until probably a big player pushes forward 
to provide something

Kathy: I've been involved in some of the conversations about voice 
recognition – so if that is going to become reality we may have an 
implementation where we could at least call that out. Let's figure out 
how far along they actually are and being able to do that.

<scribe> *ACTION:* Kathy to see where voice recognition authentication 
applications are

<trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - See where voice recognition 
authentication applications are [on Kathleen Wahlbin - due 2019-01-31].

<scribe> *ACTION:* Shadi to also reach out about where voice recognition 
authentication applications are

<trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Also reach out about where voice 
recognition authentication applications are [on Shadi Abou-Zahra - due 
2019-01-31].

Kathy: for next time will try to get low vision feedback, and also 
action items from today


    Summary of Action Items

*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Chris to research custom gestures breaking webpage AT
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Kathy to see where voice recognition authentication 
applications are
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Kim send proposal for spacing between touch targets to 
low-vision task force for feedback
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* send proposal for spacing between touch targets to 
low-vision task force for feedback
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Shadi to also reach out about where voice recognition 
authentication applications are


    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
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Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's 
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$Date: 2019/01/24 17:09:48 $

___________________________________________________

Kimberly Patch

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

PatchonTech.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
@PatchonTech
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________