MATF Minutes 1 February 2018

*MATF Minutes 1 February, 2018 link: 
https://www.w3.org/2018/02/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html*


  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference


    01 Feb 2018


    Attendees

Present
    JakeABma, Kathy, Detlev, chriscm, kim
Regrets

Chair
    Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
    kim


    Contents

  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2018/02/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
     1. what constitutes a sentence
        <https://www.w3.org/2018/02/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <https://www.w3.org/2018/02/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <https://www.w3.org/2018/02/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>


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      what constitutes a sentence

Kathy: different topics – headings that are sentences, paragraphs, lists 
that have sentencing them, tables that have sentences in them and forms 
that have sentences in them
... would any of these be excluded?
... looking at different types of sites

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page

Kathy: working on understanding language and working on techniques
... We will create a page on the wiki that will organize the MATF work 
going forward
... looking at different types of sentences – does this fall under the 
exclusion
... use these examples to create generic examples

Kim: some are sentences some are not but they occupy the same space and 
task on the page

Kathy: are these sentences or titles
... discussing the AAA criteria – that has the exception for targets 
that are in a sentence or block of text
... looking at scenarios of things that are questionable in my mind of 
what is a sentence
... the target is in one sentence or more than one sentence

Detlev: requirement for sentence having a subject and a predicate? On 
the other hand you have text that's used as a stand-alone sentence

<chriscm> THis point has been raised many many times...

<chriscm> :)

Kathy: Examples where the heading is linked, then there are sentences 
after the heading
... I'm trying to find examples – the target is in the text or the 
target is a heading

Jake: If the success criteria of text is awkward – are we trying to 
search for a solution or we should have thought of providing more proper 
exception and we don't have them now so we are trying to divine when is 
a heading a sentence and when not

Kathy: we are stuck with the language in the CFC because that is what 
was agreed on with the group. The only thing I can do right now is 
putting next nation and the understanding document and then we get to 
techniques were going to have to write the test procedure and if we 
don't have answers to these were not going to be able to write the test 
procedure. Because we would have a lot of ambiguity about whether this 
is something that meets or doesn't meet the [CUT]

success criteria.

Kathy: I'm struggling with what the target in a sentence actually is – I 
have examples and it's not as black-and-white as it may seem. Having the 
word sentence in there as well as blocks of text opens up a lot of questions
... about where it applies and where it doesn't apply

Detlev: can't we treat a sentence as one line – at least it's embedded 
in text and that would be true for a block of text and for a sentence. 
If in-line the first words label are a link the exception would hold 
because it's a block of text

Detlef: how to point should be unrelated to the underlying semantics

Detlev: other examples not inside a sentence or block of text

Jake: sentence because you could have a paragraph with just one sentence 
than a paragraph with a couple of sentences and there should not be a 
difference between a one sentence paragraph and multi-sentence paragraph

Kathy: example: target within a sentence would not be excluded

Detlev: if it stands alone on its own line it would have enough padding 
and could be excluded

Jake: unless the developer in this case puts a link around the sentence 
– I'm not sure if you can just say it's only part of the sentence

Detlev: space between the paragraphs anyway so much easier task to add 
the padding to meet the requirement

Jake: still leaves a little bit of room for cases where people do make 
the whole sentence clickable

Kathy: Patrick's example of where he used the pointer CSS and then also 
patting would work well to increase the target size because you're not 
going to have overlapping targets per se because we have just one target 
for that sentence so we don't have to deal with multiple targets
... and if we have more than one target in there it's a block of text 
and so it's excluded

Detlev: I think it's not so hard to meet

Kathy: it addresses a concern we have when we have something embedded 
within a sentence – I like your idea, I think it would solve the 
problem. I'd like to go through more examples to see if it applies in 
all these different scenarios
... example, one paragraph, then view a printable fact sheet. These are 
two sets of links. They look like two separate sentences. They are in 
one paragraph element

Detlev: they would fail, but if they wanted to meet they would have a 
proper paragraph in space between them

Jake: also in this case you could argue that this is an unordered list

Kathy: if we have a bunch of links in an unordered list which are 
sentences is that excluded or is that included?

Jake: regular links, but we also have menu links with order – is it just 
a regular plain in-line link on a list or a menu list

Kathy: bulleted list but each of the Bullets is a list

<JakeAbma> https://www.ing.nl/particulier/index.html

<JakeAbma> https://www.nu.nl/

Jake: it would be a bit of a shame to have sites comply with this AAA 
success criteria and still fail because these kinds of lists

Kim: some of the list examples are clearly not sentences, they are topics

Kathy: Some are – headlines in a news site, for example

Jake: news sites should just expand the sizes

Kathy: another example – table, I guess this would be excluded even if 
it was a table because the sentences within the table – included into 
the requirements
... another example – jump list – they have quite a bit of distance,, 
already fairly spaced apart
... example: excluded because the link is just part of the text

Detlev: when the entire list item is the link that's the kind of edge case

Kathy: example: footnotes and ? Icons
... footnote and ? Icons excluded because they are part of the sentence?
... example: within forms – I think the same thing can happen with the 
form,, so if we have the full sentence being the link it would be 
included, but if it's part of a sentence it would be excluded

Detlev: if links stand alone would be easy to meet the requirement – 
that's my gut approach

Kathy: great idea Detlev that gets us away from having to define a sentence

Detlev: single line of text

Kathy: I need to modify the understanding document – Kim and I are going 
to create a wiki page that are going to outline all the things that need 
to get done. The understanding documents need to be updated in the next 
two weeks. Then we have to work on techniques.

We will create a wiki page on the mobile task force wiki that will say 
what people are doing and how far along things are

Kathy: some of the people in the working group are going to start coming 
into the task force to work on these things with us – more important to 
have things clearly organized
... we will send out an email with that
... let me know when you have your understanding documents done – we 
will send out the information about the wiki


    Summary of Action Items


    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2018/02/01 16:54:52 $


___________________________________________________

Kimberly Patch
President
Redstart Systems
(617) 325-3966
kim@redstartsystems.com <mailto:kim@redstartsystems.com>

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________