- From: Kim Patch <kim@redstartsystems.com>
- Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 12:35:35 -0400
- To: "public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org" <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <56EADCD7.2030905@redstartsystems.com>
*MATF Minutes 17 March 2016 link: *
https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
*Text of minutes:*
Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
17 Mar 2016
See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-irc>
Attendees
Present
Kim, Kathy, Mark, Detlev, David, Jeanne
Regrets
Jonathan, Alan, Alistair, Henny, Chris
Chair
Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
Kim
Contents
* Topics <https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
1. Review assignments
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
<https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
2. Revisions to 2.5.3 and related failures
<https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
* Summary of Action Items
<https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
* Summary of Resolutions
<https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3
Kathy: No meeting next week. Questions on assignments or things you now
have ready -- assuming people are wrapping things up and picking things
up after CSUN
... if you have something most of the way there just mark as for review
and we can work on those in these meetings
<Kathy>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3#Proposed_2.5.3
Review assignments
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
Revisions to 2.5.3 and related failures
David: separate gesture, or be reversible -- I like it
Kathy: should we add anything more to the specific benefits -- if you
have anything, you can always go and add to the wiki
Detlev: are there cases where selecting by, say swiping left or right
would already call some action -- aware of one select and doubled have
doesn't do anything but when you have user gestures like sliding a
finger to move the slider and so on which are not acceptable and don't
get through because the assistive technology are taking those gestures
for something else -- that's not exactly...
... what's meant here. Have we discussed cases where the mere selection
would already trigger the action
David: email from Patrick about that
<David_> As a general rule, once AT is running, no touch events
(touchstart/touchmove/touchend) are fired directly (when the user is
actually moving their finger over the touchscreen) - unless a user
explicitly executed a passthrough gesture (if I recall, on iOS,
double-tap and keep finger on screen, then execute the gesture). Most
recent browsers/OSs with AT running will, however, fire "fake" touch...
<David_> ...events on activation (double-tap) - see
http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/tests/results/#mobile-tablet-touchscreen-assistive-technology-eventsIn
short, if the custom scripting is reliant on handling
touchstart/touchmove/touchend, it's usually not going to work (or not
going to work as expected).
Detlev: specific pass-through gestures and if the screen reader is
turned on those gestures wouldn't just work, would not be passed on to
the user agent -- that's my understanding
David: he says no events are fired unless it's a pass-through gesture,
and you almost never see that done because it doesn't work very well
Detlev: so then does this text makes sense -- could there be a situation
where you have a selection gesture like horizontal scraping that
triggers -- I haven't seen that unless you turn on that single touch
feature in android, but apart from that I can't think of any situation
where that happens. Have we collected cases where that's actually happening?
Kathy: if you touch something it would get focus and then double tap
actually activate there are scenarios whereby simply focusing on an
element activates the element. I think that's what were trying to get at
... when the screen reader is on -- doesn't happen when the screen
reader is off because double tapping is the activation
Detlev: do we have actual cases
Kathy: that's the only one that I've come across where you single tap on
it and it activates it I was wondering if there were other scenarios
that people were seeing. This originally came out of the BBC mobile stuff
David: we may not need this
Detlev: could it be that this only happens when this feature in android
is turned on
Kathy: no, I've had it happen iOS with voiceover. I know what you're
talking about with a single tap with that setting and that is there.
I've also seen the scenario where single tap activates there's no way to
focus
David: how do you program that
Kathy: I don't know the backend I want to see if we have other examples.
I couldn't come up with a scenario -- within applications, yeah, but not
within web content other than that one instance where I had that happening
David: could that situation have been a glitch or need a reboot?
<Kathy>
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/focus/touch-events
Kathy: definitely not
Detlev: still inside the button release mouse outside the button so you
prevent the event from happening so the same thing obviously can be
without the screen reader on you just click, move the finger away and it
won't happen. So I think that's a scenario that has nothing to do with
assistive technology use
Kathy: we can remove one device assistive technology is being used, just
when selection gesture is different from activation gesture easily
reversible
Detlev: if you use your iPhone without voiceover just lift the finger
and that separation between selecting and activating , but screen reader
is select something first and you hurt spoken than double tap to select
Marc: default is touch up allows you to slide off, native apps. I kind
of like wording having assistive technology turned on
Kathy: if somebody does something on touchstart -- look at the failure,
on touchstart rather than touchend
David: maybe we're better off just removing assistive technology for now
and say later we will keep it in the back of our minds. We should have a
boneyard -- stick ideas that we might need again but we're not sure
Detlev: we have a single example that demonstrates that, screenreader,
focus on something be it touch or swiping -- if that exists then I think
it's a good thing
<marcjohlic> the selection gesture must be separate from the activation
gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)
<marcjohlic> ugh - bad pasted
<marcjohlic> Interface elements that require a single tap or a long
press as input will only trigger the corresponding event when the finger
is lifted inside that element. The selection gesture must be separate
from the activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible.
(Level A)
<marcjohlic> ^ But it needs to be shorter
Jeanne: having to keep finger inside focus circle causes problems for
people with mobility issues
<marcjohlic> Propose: For interface elements that require a single tap
or a long press as input the selection gesture must be separate from the
activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)
Detlev: swipe somewhere else or tap somewhere else is different, but if
people can't do that maybe we should just throw it out
<marcjohlic> (but agreed, that may not work w/ what Jeanne is saying
about mobility issues)
Detlev: separation of selection and activation this is one place where
that can happen. This is nothing to do with the previous version because
it's not really about where the finger is it's just desktop thing where
you say leave a form element and then submit the form
Jeanne: web client dialer where if you tap the number it executed --
didn't wait for you to lift your finger to execute the number dialing. I
thought it was with the screen reader turned on
Detlev: and it wasn't the virtual keyboard he used?
Jeanne: custom dialing keyboard
Kathy: editing wiki
<marcjohlic> Propose: The selection gesture for single tap or long press
input must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation,
or be easily reversible. (Level A)
Detlev: are we mixing up BBC use of assistive technology and selection
gesture separate from activation gesture -- it doesn't really map easily
on a use case where you don't have a screen reader turned on because
here you don't separate
David: iPhone keypad -- press on the to and move away from the 2 you
already dialed it -- it activates on touch. I haven't seen any
complaints about it
Detlev: the dialing itself is a separate thing after you've put in the
number
David: let's look at some other flagship activity on the iPhone
... airplane mode wouldn't activate until I let go of my finger
... so all these buttons and the settings work that way on the iPhone
Marc: I tried a few things and it looks like they're all using touchup
events
David: I have my Google mail open, my taskbar in Safari and if you want
to refresh -- that little circle for refresh if you tap it quickly it
will refresh, if you hold it down it's going to say do you want to go to
the desktop view
... two choices request desktop site or cancel
... so there's a means to undo it
... do we really want to create something that's going to fail the
iPhone dialer. No, but we have revocable, so it's not failing it
... photo button burst mode interesting behavior
Kathy: I don't think these are behaviors we want to see. If you have
someone with a mobility impairment, problem
Detlev: presumably you can customize it's up to you to customize so it
doesn't do unintended things
Kathy: we have reversible or confirmation so we can have that as part of it
David: add can be disabled
Detlev: burst mode -- can delete all at once I don't know if that's
revocable
David: deleting them all at once -- not saving the one I want
Kathy: if we go down that route is there something we need to change.
Detlev: focus on either assistive technology or without
David: takes burst with voiceover on
... if we can boneyard assistive technology for now
Detlev: keep it is something that needs backing by some examples, ask
Chris to come forward with the dial path example
Kathy: let's move away from assistive technology and focus on the latter
part of it
Detlev: I think that is valid and is just good practices to mobile and
whether that can stay in or people would consider that general usability
I'm not sure. BBC has different scope maybe
Kathy: is this very similar to oninput or onfocus?
... very rare, but example yesterday behind a firewall. Loss of focus
... how often this is actually gonna happen -- it may not be. I think
there is a challenge within single tabs and long presses. I think in the
settings on the iPhone, and I haven't played around with this. I think
you can actually change the time for long press in the settings
Generally looking for this
David: what about force touch
<marcjohlic> "Touch Accommodations" under General > Accessibility
Detlev: 3-D touch same thing, may not be available to everybody with 3-D
touch phone but you can get to everything by going into the application
Kathy: 3-D touch images, actions and actual menus
Detlev: presumably someone could write an app where people have things
for 3-D touch that appear nowhere else, so that would be a failure
... failure: content elements or whatever where you provide through just
3-D touch or just long presses where you can have in any other way where
it's not just a shortcut but something unique that other people can't
get to who can't exert the force touch because the device doesn't
support it or because their motor disability doesn't allow them to touch
for that long a time
Kathy adding this to wiki
Detlev: also keyboard users wouldn't have a way of doing al ong touch
Kathy: is there a keyboard equivalent?
Marc: general accessibility, touch accommodation, tap assistance
... location of touch
David: but they don't say anything about force touch
<Kathy> 2.5.3 Single Taps and Long Presses Revocable: The selection
gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation,
or be easily reversible. (Level A)
Kathy: here's what we have right now
Kim: still doesn't say anything about settings
David: giving them a lot of options
Jeanne: I think we really confuse things when we get into the user agent
side of it. On this particular example we need to stick with just what
the author can write
David: mechanism is available -- that can be author or operating system
doesn't matter. If there's nothing in the settings and they need to be
able to. Maybe we can actually leverage that -- or a mechanism is available
Kathy: a mechanism is available to change the touch settings?
David: we don't want it to activate it on touch, so an activation is
available to disable activation untouched -- on down. We're not worried
about up, just ondown
Kathy: you could have user settings and application that allows you to
change the way it's doing that -- that would be an okay alternative to this
<Kathy> 2.5.3 Single Taps and Long Presses Revocable: The selection
gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation,
be easily reversible or there is a mechanism is available to change the
way touch settings.
David: or a mechanism must be available to separate them -- that's
really what we want to say
... it's really the down action that's causing the trouble so maybe we
need to say that in the success criteria
Jeanne: or in the understanding
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2016/03/17 16:29:53 $
___________________________________________________
Kimberly Patch
President
Redstart Systems
(617) 325-3966
kim@redstartsystems.com <mailto:kim@redstartsystems.com>
www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly
Blog: Patch on Speech
+Kim Patch
@RedstartSystems
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 17 March 2016 16:36:08 UTC