- From: Kim Patch <kim@redstartsystems.com>
- Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:16:49 -0400
- To: "public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org" <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <57224581.3050106@redstartsystems.com>
*MATF Minutes 14 April 2016 link:
*https://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
*
Text of minutes:*
Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
28 Apr 2016
See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-irc>
Attendees
Present
Kathy, 1, Kim, Detlev, David, Jeanne, Alan
Regrets
Patrick, Chris, Jon, Henny, MichaelC
Chair
Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
Kim
Contents
* Topics <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
* Summary of Action Items
<https://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
* Summary of Resolutions
<https://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<Kathy> Chair: Kathy
Kathy: yesterday's coordination call -- I brought up that we are
basically ready to get feedback for touch pointer from working group and
larger group. Working on getting this posted to the interest group as
well to solicit feedback. Request -- post such an pointer without the
rest around it. The concern is there are a lot of discussions going on
about what the model should be and how that's...
... going to ultimately look but I don't want us to have to wait until
that's been decided. So in order to do that were going to pull out touch
and pointer as a separate document away from everything else -- right
now it's package is a formal extension and we need to package it as just
touch and pointer for them to look at.
... we are on the agenda for the WCAG call next Tuesday, working on
language to get it to the mailing list
... this meeting is our last one to make any final tweaks
<Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer
<https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer>
Jeanne walking us through understanding
Jeanne: I added sentences about pointer. Added definition of pointer
from another W3C document so we are consistent
... suggestion from Patrick -- this also applies to pointer events on
nonmobile platforms
... added "except where specifically noted touch is assumed to include
pointing devices" Patrick said should not include mouse -- group needs
to discuss
... definition of pointer according to W3C includes the mouse.
Kathy: worried about having that last sentence in there at all, pointer
devices are much smaller -- pen or stylus don't need 44 x 44 pixel touch
target size for that, so I think that's specific to touch
David: if we do need a mouse we should say it. People pull these things
out of context
... we're better off saying it whereever we need to
... I've had usability experts misunderstand because they have not read
the understanding document
... another word for devices?
Kim: Platform?
<jeanne> Platforms today can be operated through a number of different
devices including touch, stylus, pen, in addition to mouse and keyboard.
Some platforms such as a mobile device are designed to be primarily
operated via gestures made on a touchscreen. Other devices can be
operated by a number of different devices, such as a pen, stylus, or
mouse, which may be generically referred to as a
<jeanne> pointer. This section also applies to pointer events on
non-mobile platforms.
Kathy: you automatically get it because you say working with touch -- if
it's only working with pointer it's mimicking mouse input at which point
we don't have an issue because it's not touch enabled and therefore not
going to work well with the platform technology anyway
Jeanne: also thinking of the Apple pencil, which can do more
David: pointer doesn't include touch is that right?
... pointer, in brackets including touch every time?
Jeanne: the pointer events working group designed a specification --
wouldn't want to walk away from that. What I would like to do is anytime
were talking about just touch say touch and use pointer as the generic term
David: our definition says it's all the same. Developer is going to want
to distinguish between touch and pointer
... walking a very fine line between do we want to be -- is it
technically correct and nobody can understand us or do we want to take
some leeway
Kathy: instead of "except where noted..." Change to when were talking
about pointer devices we are including everything, when we say
specifically touch only touch interaction
Jeanne: looking at it and I think we should say for single touch and
pointer -- make that an and
David: I think that could work well
<jeanne> Anywhere where we say "touch and pointer" we recognized that
touch is included in the definition of pointer, but we include touch for
clarity for those less familiar with pointer.
David: although our definition of pointer includes touch, we use "touch
and pointer" for greater clarity
... when we use just touch, we mean just touch
<jeanne> Although the definition of "pointer" includes touch, we include
touch and pointer for clarity. WHen we use the term touch, we just mean
touch.
Kathy: if we do that we don't really need to change any of the success
criteria for that
Discussing handling comments
<David>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.4
Jeanne: 2.5.4 email to list just before meeting. CSUN presentation
flagged for me they were starting with a size significantly larger than
the size we had been talking about. Looked at other research has been
done about pixel size, minimum touch target size and I'm concerned that
we're going out with too small touch target size
David: we can say the actual size is a placeholder we are still engaged
in research on what the numbers should be
Kathy: Microsoft did research on this -- people are more successful with
larger touch target size I think it was 48 x 48. If you wanted people to
be more successful like voting -- no room for failure larger touch
target size. We say that in understanding -- if larger touch target size
is needed...
Jeanne: also research on fall off -- there's a point where increasing
touch target size didn't significantly increase accuracy
Kathy: Microsoft says the average width of a finger is 11 mm. Larger
than that the accidental mistaps drop off significantly
Jeanne: that's research for people without disabilities, people with
dexterity disabilities minimum is 20 as opposed to 11
Kathy: 2 mm is 10 pixels. 20 mm is 100 pixels wide
Jeanne: that's such a big difference that I don't think we can just use
that as a placeholder
David: when you're talking about that size you're really talking about
using assistive technology to repurpose -- magnification that makes
targets larger and re-flows them on the screen
... something that takes the home screen and puts everything in one line
instead of a grid so you can have huge target sizes...
<Kathy> Apple touch target size:
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/MobileHIG/LayoutandAppearance.html
Jeanne: I'm concerned that over the years I've been involved in
conversations about how W3C needs to use research to form their
standards -- this is one of those rare occasions where there is research
to form our standards
Kathy: I agree, we need to pay attention to research -- we have to look
at the validity of the research too
<Kathy> Android touch target size:
https://developers.google.com/speed/docs/insights/SizeTapTargetsAppropriately
Jeanne: set up wiki page with research
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Summary_of_Research_on_Touch/Pointer_Target_Size#Summary_of_Research_on_Touch.2FPointer_Target_Size
Detlev: realistic approach -- minimum that still acceptable and for
accommodation that larger is better keeping in mind that there's also
the issue of how much screen real estate -- if you have a small mobile
screen to fit it in. Near impossible to design something that will
actually work if every element is actually that size
Jeanne: also research on that
Detlev: obviously get better results if touched eyes is bigger but also
trade-offs of screen real estate and what you're able to see at the same
time
+1
Detlev: the critical thing is what do we settle for as a proposed
minimum target size, and then larger if appropriate. 9 mm at the start,
research 20 mm, also smaller sizes that are offset -- you don't need
text llink target that's 20 mm
... so also the offset to other target sizes we need to capture
Kathy: Put this out with specific questions -- what should be the touch
target size and we can point to this research that Jeanne put together
and get feedback. We're not going to solve this now.
Jeanne: I think calling it out is good -- concerned that we don't have a
group that deals with dexterity
Detlev: the same argument could follow that justifies that there's no
minimum for text size -- you just have this requirement to enlarge by
200%. The argument there will be there're always ways of increasing text
size -- on mobile built-in on the system level
... it would be better to make those requirements and say we're not
talking about magnification because that forces you to do it by section,
and that's harder
<David>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.4#Proposed_2.5.4
<Alan_Smith> + 1
Kathy: Pulling this out into a separate document -- status of document
will have any questions that we want to pose to people for comment. That
information that's in the wiki will go into this section of this new
page we've created
<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.5.4 Understanding to match the
wiki. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Update 2.5.4 understanding to match the
wiki. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-05-05].
<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to split off Touch and Pointer into a separate
document from the Extension. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-49 - Split off touch and pointer into a
separate document from the extension. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due
2016-05-05].
<jeanne> *ACTION:* add Acknowledgements section [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Error finding 'add'. You can review and register nicknames at
<http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to add Ackowledgements sections to Touch &
Pointer and Extension. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Add ackowledgements sections to touch &
pointer and extension. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-05-05].
Summary of Action Items
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* add Acknowledgements section [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action03]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to add Ackowledgements sections to Touch &
Pointer and Extension. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action04]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to split off Touch and Pointer into a separate
document from the Extension. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.5.4 Understanding to match the
wiki. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
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$Date: 2016/04/28 16:45:41 $
___________________________________________________
Kimberly Patch
President
Redstart Systems
(617) 325-3966
kim@redstartsystems.com <mailto:kim@redstartsystems.com>
www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly
Blog: Patch on Speech
+Kim Patch
@RedstartSystems
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 28 April 2016 17:17:22 UTC