MATF Minutes 14 April 2016

*MATF Minutes 14 April 2016 link: 
*https://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html

*
Text of minutes:*


  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference


    28 Apr 2016

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-irc>


    Attendees

Present
    Kathy, 1, Kim, Detlev, David, Jeanne, Alan
Regrets
    Patrick, Chris, Jon, Henny, MichaelC
Chair
    Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
    Kim


    Contents

  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

<Kathy> Chair: Kathy

Kathy: yesterday's coordination call -- I brought up that we are 
basically ready to get feedback for touch pointer from working group and 
larger group. Working on getting this posted to the interest group as 
well to solicit feedback. Request -- post such an pointer without the 
rest around it. The concern is there are a lot of discussions going on 
about what the model should be and how that's...
... going to ultimately look but I don't want us to have to wait until 
that's been decided. So in order to do that were going to pull out touch 
and pointer as a separate document away from everything else -- right 
now it's package is a formal extension and we need to package it as just 
touch and pointer for them to look at.
... we are on the agenda for the WCAG call next Tuesday, working on 
language to get it to the mailing list
... this meeting is our last one to make any final tweaks

<Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer 
<https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer>

Jeanne walking us through understanding

Jeanne: I added sentences about pointer. Added definition of pointer 
from another W3C document so we are consistent
... suggestion from Patrick -- this also applies to pointer events on 
nonmobile platforms
... added "except where specifically noted touch is assumed to include 
pointing devices" Patrick said should not include mouse -- group needs 
to discuss
... definition of pointer according to W3C includes the mouse.

Kathy: worried about having that last sentence in there at all, pointer 
devices are much smaller -- pen or stylus don't need 44 x 44 pixel touch 
target size for that, so I think that's specific to touch

David: if we do need a mouse we should say it. People pull these things 
out of context
... we're better off saying it whereever we need to
... I've had usability experts misunderstand because they have not read 
the understanding document
... another word for devices?

Kim: Platform?

<jeanne> Platforms today can be operated through a number of different 
devices including touch, stylus, pen, in addition to mouse and keyboard. 
Some platforms such as a mobile device are designed to be primarily 
operated via gestures made on a touchscreen. Other devices can be 
operated by a number of different devices, such as a pen, stylus, or 
mouse, which may be generically referred to as a

<jeanne> pointer. This section also applies to pointer events on 
non-mobile platforms.

Kathy: you automatically get it because you say working with touch -- if 
it's only working with pointer it's mimicking mouse input at which point 
we don't have an issue because it's not touch enabled and therefore not 
going to work well with the platform technology anyway

Jeanne: also thinking of the Apple pencil, which can do more

David: pointer doesn't include touch is that right?
... pointer, in brackets including touch every time?

Jeanne: the pointer events working group designed a specification -- 
wouldn't want to walk away from that. What I would like to do is anytime 
were talking about just touch say touch and use pointer as the generic term

David: our definition says it's all the same. Developer is going to want 
to distinguish between touch and pointer
... walking a very fine line between do we want to be -- is it 
technically correct and nobody can understand us or do we want to take 
some leeway

Kathy: instead of "except where noted..." Change to when were talking 
about pointer devices we are including everything, when we say 
specifically touch only touch interaction

Jeanne: looking at it and I think we should say for single touch and 
pointer -- make that an and

David: I think that could work well

<jeanne> Anywhere where we say "touch and pointer" we recognized that 
touch is included in the definition of pointer, but we include touch for 
clarity for those less familiar with pointer.

David: although our definition of pointer includes touch, we use "touch 
and pointer" for greater clarity
... when we use just touch, we mean just touch

<jeanne> Although the definition of "pointer" includes touch, we include 
touch and pointer for clarity. WHen we use the term touch, we just mean 
touch.

Kathy: if we do that we don't really need to change any of the success 
criteria for that

Discussing handling comments

<David> 
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.4

Jeanne: 2.5.4 email to list just before meeting. CSUN presentation 
flagged for me they were starting with a size significantly larger than 
the size we had been talking about. Looked at other research has been 
done about pixel size, minimum touch target size and I'm concerned that 
we're going out with too small touch target size

David: we can say the actual size is a placeholder we are still engaged 
in research on what the numbers should be

Kathy: Microsoft did research on this -- people are more successful with 
larger touch target size I think it was 48 x 48. If you wanted people to 
be more successful like voting -- no room for failure larger touch 
target size. We say that in understanding -- if larger touch target size 
is needed...

Jeanne: also research on fall off -- there's a point where increasing 
touch target size didn't significantly increase accuracy

Kathy: Microsoft says the average width of a finger is 11 mm. Larger 
than that the accidental mistaps drop off significantly

Jeanne: that's research for people without disabilities, people with 
dexterity disabilities minimum is 20 as opposed to 11

Kathy: 2 mm is 10 pixels. 20 mm is 100 pixels wide

Jeanne: that's such a big difference that I don't think we can just use 
that as a placeholder

David: when you're talking about that size you're really talking about 
using assistive technology to repurpose -- magnification that makes 
targets larger and re-flows them on the screen
... something that takes the home screen and puts everything in one line 
instead of a grid so you can have huge target sizes...

<Kathy> Apple touch target size: 
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/MobileHIG/LayoutandAppearance.html

Jeanne: I'm concerned that over the years I've been involved in 
conversations about how W3C needs to use research to form their 
standards -- this is one of those rare occasions where there is research 
to form our standards

Kathy: I agree, we need to pay attention to research -- we have to look 
at the validity of the research too

<Kathy> Android touch target size: 
https://developers.google.com/speed/docs/insights/SizeTapTargetsAppropriately

Jeanne: set up wiki page with research

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Summary_of_Research_on_Touch/Pointer_Target_Size#Summary_of_Research_on_Touch.2FPointer_Target_Size

Detlev: realistic approach -- minimum that still acceptable and for 
accommodation that larger is better keeping in mind that there's also 
the issue of how much screen real estate -- if you have a small mobile 
screen to fit it in. Near impossible to design something that will 
actually work if every element is actually that size

Jeanne: also research on that

Detlev: obviously get better results if touched eyes is bigger but also 
trade-offs of screen real estate and what you're able to see at the same 
time

+1

Detlev: the critical thing is what do we settle for as a proposed 
minimum target size, and then larger if appropriate. 9 mm at the start, 
research 20 mm, also smaller sizes that are offset -- you don't need 
text llink target that's 20 mm
... so also the offset to other target sizes we need to capture

Kathy: Put this out with specific questions -- what should be the touch 
target size and we can point to this research that Jeanne put together 
and get feedback. We're not going to solve this now.

Jeanne: I think calling it out is good -- concerned that we don't have a 
group that deals with dexterity

Detlev: the same argument could follow that justifies that there's no 
minimum for text size -- you just have this requirement to enlarge by 
200%. The argument there will be there're always ways of increasing text 
size -- on mobile built-in on the system level
... it would be better to make those requirements and say we're not 
talking about magnification because that forces you to do it by section, 
and that's harder

<David> 
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.4#Proposed_2.5.4

<Alan_Smith> + 1

Kathy: Pulling this out into a separate document -- status of document 
will have any questions that we want to pose to people for comment. That 
information that's in the wiki will go into this section of this new 
page we've created

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.5.4 Understanding to match the 
wiki. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Update 2.5.4 understanding to match the 
wiki. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-05-05].

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to split off Touch and Pointer into a separate 
document from the Extension. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-49 - Split off touch and pointer into a 
separate document from the extension. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 
2016-05-05].

<jeanne> *ACTION:* add Acknowledgements section [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Error finding 'add'. You can review and register nicknames at 
<http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to add Ackowledgements sections to Touch & 
Pointer and Extension. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Add ackowledgements sections to touch & 
pointer and extension. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-05-05].


    Summary of Action Items

*[NEW]* *ACTION:* add Acknowledgements section [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action03]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to add Ackowledgements sections to Touch & 
Pointer and Extension. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action04]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to split off Touch and Pointer into a separate 
document from the Extension. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.5.4 Understanding to match the 
wiki. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]


    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2016/04/28 16:45:41 $



___________________________________________________
Kimberly Patch
President
Redstart Systems
(617) 325-3966
kim@redstartsystems.com <mailto:kim@redstartsystems.com>

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

Blog: Patch on Speech
+Kim Patch
@RedstartSystems
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Received on Thursday, 28 April 2016 17:17:22 UTC