- From: Kim Patch <kim@redstartsystems.com>
- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 12:22:41 -0500
- To: "public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org" <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <54C131E1.2010304@redstartsystems.com>
MATF Minutes 22 January 2015 link:
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
Text of minutes:1 <http://www.w3.org/>
Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
22 Jan 2015
Agenda
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Jan/0014.html>
See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-irc>
Attendees
Present
Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, Jan, [IPcaller]
Regrets
Detlev_Fisher, Alan_Smith
Chair
Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
Kim
Contents
* Topics <http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
1. Note Review - please fill out the survey:
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150112_survey/
<http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
2. Note introduction
<http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
3. A1 small screen size
<http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
4. A3 color contrast and glare
<http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item04>
5. B1 <http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item05>
6. B2 <http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item06>
7. B3 <http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item07>
8. B4 <http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item08>
* Summary of Action Items
<http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<trackbot> Date: 22 January 2015
<jon_avila> I will only be joining via IRC today as I have a conflict.
Kathy: maybe we could start talking about the recent conversation that's
gone back and forth on question surrounding the pinch zoom and browser
functions versus device functions
... several relevant threads -- keyboard interfaces, enabling Zoom
<marcjohlic>
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2015JanMar/subject.html
Kathy: enabling Zoom on mobile devices thread, started by Mike E.,
conversation whether or not they should have pinch zoom, if they do need
to provide alternative way to change text size
Jan: you can always just take the whole screen image and make it bigger.
Jon: the issue didn't get totally resolved, people on both sides of it.
From what we discussed it seems like there are other ways that you can
meet the success criteria, not just pinch zoom, you could support large
text by using widget, font settings like Apple, android override. Lots
of ways to meet it, but supporting pinch zoom is an easy way to always
meet it in my opinion
<Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140916/F80
Jan: looking at a failure that pinch zoom would override
Kathy: if you have the viewport and say max size is one you can't pinch zoom
Jan: can't at the browser level but you can at the device level
Jon: in my opinion it's the browser level, not only magnifies content
but also other things keyboard and parts of UI. Where I have my
disagreement is Greg says regardless of the technology because it comes
with a device. Pinch zoom is targeted to everyone, whereas the zoom
feature in iOS is targeted to people with low vision.
... increase the text size by 200%, you can't do that within the user
agent if viewport lockdown, how can you pass it?
Jan: this failure, doesn't say anything about lockdown zooming.
Procedure is to increase text size, not the viewport zoom. And then you
fail so you fill this success criteria.
... I we saw these failures were 100%, you do this and if it doesn't you
fail
Jon: these are known failures, there are other ways to meet the success
criteria, just because there's a failure here doesn't mean -- may be
able to pass using browser settings
<marcjohlic> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140916/G142
Jan: this one needs to have condition in it that clarifies
Kathy: we could add clarification in the actual failure
... in our note 8.3 magnification very relevant and what we've been
talking about this whole thread. That section needs to be written yet
and I think that we need to decide what direction were going to go.
Based on this thread I think were going to get a lot of discussion of
our comments and questions about it, especially because a lot of the
people responding to the threat are on the...
... WCAG working group. I wanted us to have sufficient agreement on what
direction we want this to go and we can support that based on our
discussions here.
Jan: I agree with what John says about IOS level zoom being assistive
technology. If you lock down some level that should be a fail
Jon: the other way to do it is to just bring up the issue, describe all
the ways to meet it. Say this needs to be taken into consideration. Stat
it in words that don't say it's a failure but just put it out there.
Kathy: we should also bring this up at the face-to-face meeting at CSUN
... viewport is one way to do it, your point in email thread about other
ways to do it is also important to have in there
Jan: should transition most of zooming stuff to what was A3. A lot more
users are going to be using consumed. A1 covers a lot of it. We should
make a one primarily about things that reduce the need to zoom and move
zoom into A3
... working on doing that now
Kathy: Jon -- since you are familiar with the thread can you go through
and make sure we have all the points in their
Jon: will do that
Kathy: Jan, thanks for doing testing. For other people doing testing if
you can try to get that done this week that would be great. I'll be
working on the appendix
<Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150112_survey/results
Note Review - please fill out the survey:
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150112_survey/
Note introduction
<Jan> The term also applies to "wearables" such as "smart"-glasses,
"smart"-watches and fitness bands and other small computing devices such
as those embedded into car dashboards, airplane seatbacks, and household
appliances.
Jon: they have similar challenges
Kathy: Detlev suggestions on wording -- Kim can take into consideration
with the wording pass through this week
Jan: we say this is informative not normative a lot of times
<Kathy> The current document references existing WCAG 2.0 Techniques
that apply to mobile platform (see Appendix A) and provides new best
practices, which may in the future become WCAG 2.0 Techniques that
directly address some of the emerging mobile accessibility challenges,
such as small screens, touch and gesture interface, and changing screen
orientation.
Kathy: reorder -- move up just before the normative techniques, move
that up and then delete the rest of the section -- thoughts on that?
Jan making change
A1 small screen size
Kathy: some of the comments will be covered by the changes we just
talked about
... any further separation of the sections?
Jan: A1 stays small screen size. A2 Zoom and text resizing. 2 and 3 put
together, I will do some smoothing.
A3 color contrast and glare
Jan: made Alan's changes
Kathy: thoughts on that Detlev comments
Jan: added, will smooth later
Jon: 1.4.3 -- purpose of putting in 1.2 and 1.5 times is not to say text
will be readable, but the allowance for produced contrast is permissible
in larger text. In reality even if you do that people with low vision --
still not going to be helpful enough, so you still have to use other
features like pinch zooming to read the text. We don't want to give the
idea that if you make your text...
... 100% the size it's going to be accessible. That was Greg's caveat at
the end of the discussion -- we need to make it clear that this doesn't
solve these issues.
... some of these paragraphs duplicate each other
Kathy: we do have repetition, but it does add some clarity. I'm fine
with keeping it in. I think once we get the document finalize we can go
back and see where we want to remove stuff. Once we get a2 written we
may want to either adjust that or just leave it in. Once we get the
whole section we might want to adjust..
Jon: will look at A2 after the call
Kathy: then we need to look at A 1, 2, 3 as a whole
Jon: we cover magnification but don't address anything else perceivable
in this section.
Kathy: we didn't have any other things -- are there others you would add?
Jon: will think about it
B1
Kathy: Alan comment
Jan: was already removed
B2
Kathy: Detlev proposal
Jan: making change
B3
Jan: a way to understand that some people will be simplifying gestures
and some people will be doing something different. Also discoverable,
but separate section for that
Kathy: this is a place where we could go down a rat hole with lots of
information on gestures. How do people feel about keeping it the way it
is, more information about gestures, separating into more sections
Jan: Okay with it
Kathy: I'll follow up with Detlev
B4
Kathy: different hand sizes
Jon: flexibility, people using things in different ways. This is further
away from where we want to stick. In general we don't want to go too far
away from the WCAG success criteria.
Kathy: this document does allow us to put in best practices
Jon: how do we indicate prioritization -- if we don't do that how do
people understand the severity of these things
Kathy: the first part says people use this in different ways, also
sometimes only one hand available, also devices already havework arounds
such as i08 shift downwards. maybe that last sentence is a best practice
Jan: gets complicated, reachability on iOS 6+...
Kathy: this is more of a usability thing than anything else, could be
convinced to remove this, but wondering if there's some benefit to
keeping it but calling it out more as something that would definitely
help make the ease of access easier on mobile if people can easily reach
certain things and certain modes that are easier when you don't have any
workarounds on the device to access things
<Kathy> http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1927
Kathy: usability study on this
Mark: at least grouping related controls together-- don't know the best
way to word that and it is all around usability but grouping controls
that will be used at the same time be near each other
Jon: C4 covers that grouping operable elements together -- actually
that's different. It could be in B or C.
Kathy: any thoughts on keeping this in, removing it, incorporating it
into another section...
Jan: if we are calling out issues to keep in mind I want to say let's
keep it, but calling out issues without decent solutions is not that
helpful.
Kathy: there is a lot of research right now in usability as far as how
to place things -- lots of diagrams in this study usability and
interaction on mobile
Jon: I think we should keep it in. Help users navigate content
potentially. Moving things to the top of screen could affect the reading
order. Situation where something is good for one disability and not for
another.
Jan: looking at hard okay graphic from link. Right-handed and
left-handed large small
Jon: landscape mode too
Kathy: he has those all listed out
Jan: within the thumb reach zone is basically what he is saying
Jon: in addition to swipe gestures -- another issue
Kathy: maybe this section needs to be clarified to say more about
different ways of interacting, and that there are other considerations
Jan: maybe we want to reference this work and say be careful in your
application of it. What we are trying to say is it's actually much more
complicated
Kathy: we are out of time. Does anybody want to take a pass at this
section and put forth a recommendation for next week?
Jan: a few sentences but it will be a strawman for the group to take up
next week
Kathy: we will continue working on some of the sections this week. If
you have time there are other sections that need to be fleshed out..
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2015-01-22 17:19:16 $
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___________________________________________________
Kimberly Patch
President
Redstart Systems, Inc.
(617) 325-3966
kim@redstartsystems.com
www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly
Blog: Patch on Speech
+Kim Patch
Twitter: RedstartSystems
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 22 January 2015 17:23:21 UTC