MATF Minutes 19 November, 2015

MATF Minutes 19 November, 2015 link: 
http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html

Text of minutes:


  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference


    03 Dec 2015

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-irc>


    Attendees

Present
    Kim, jon_avila, Kathy, jeanne, David, Jeanne, Detlev, Marc, Jon
Regrets
    Henny
Chair
    Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
    Kim


    Contents

  * Topics <http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
     1. Timeline
        <http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
     2. 2.5.2 <http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
     3. 2.5.3 <http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
     4. Logistics
        <http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item04>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kathy: focus on guidelines today.
... would like to have people identify techniques for 2.5.1


      Timeline

Kathy: publishes a draft ideally before CSUN -- techniques especially 
within the touch and pointer area, some of that finalized by than. That 
involves getting feedback from WCAG

<david> link to the current draft pls

Kathy: input from more people by publishing to mailing list etc.
... that's where we are hoping to go -- any questions

Detlev: open questionnaire again?

Kathy: questionnaire is now open

<Kathy_> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-navigation


      2.5.2

<david> can people not talking mute

Kathy: examples sent around for 2.5.2 swipe traps

<Detlev> Can you post the link again to Alistairs example?

David: reverse trap the big problem?

Kathy: scrolling div problem, and Alastair comment on scrolling div
... I'm not 100% clear on whether this is an issue in iOS or just HTML

Jon: one example it comes to mind is an infinite carousel -- you can 
swipe through all the items and instructions that say swipe outside the 
carousel to move the focus away from it. Does that meet that requirement 
or would we see that as a failure?

Kathy: since they are advised that they could move away as long as they 
could do that with the screen reader turned on the only question is what 
it actually work with a keyboard to or is it only touch to do it

Jon: exactly and what if there's content after the carousel -- you would 
have to swipe backwards to go through it and you could end up in the 
carousel again and have to touch to get out of it again -- very kludgy

Kathy: if touch outside the carousel are you wherever you touch or 
outside the carousel

Jon: with voiceover it's wherever you touch

David: trying it

Kathy: based on that kind of behavior, do we need to change 2.5.2?

Jon: there must be a predictable way -- touching randomly on the screen 
not enough

Kathy: should we take out user is advised of a way of moving focus away

Jon: just needs to be qualified
... looking at the corresponding keyboard one it has the same problem -- 
it assumes that if you move away you would end up on the next focus will 
item but it doesn't say that

Kathy: with keyboard it's a little more predictable -- going through the 
page as opposed to with touch you could touch anywhere

<Detlev> Can't hear you David...

David: what happens if you tab -- you only have a keyboard you don't 
have a mouse

Jon: you'd be tabbing through everything so you would never get out of 
it, but you could set up a keyboard binding. That wouldn't work for 
touch user
... are we pushing for keyboard accessible for voiceover user or touch 
accessible as well
... it would be similar if there was a footer on the page and you could 
never reach the footer because of an infinite scroll

David: it sounds like a big issue to me

Kathy: any examples that people know of or are these things were going 
to have to set up ourselves?

David: I think we need to find them in the wild. Olympic Canadian 
committee example, you couldn't get to the infinite scroll, it was the 
opposite problem
... maybe we can all take an action item to look around for infinite 
scrolls that don't work

Kathy: I ran across an issue with touch access -- scrollbar to get 
information but on mobile the scrollbar was cut off on the right hand 
side so you couldn't use it. Nobody can use it

Detlev: example that puts aria hidden on the page background preventing 
you from accessing -- sent one example to the list that I constructed -- 
page background doesn't get focus anymore once the page has been 
selected -- not sure it's a realistic example

Kathy: after the dialogue closes you can access it?

Detlev: if you could get out to the browser chrome you could then go 
elsewhere

Kathy: it's not exactly a swipe trap, not sure where that fits

Marc: example with voiceover on no longer able to scroll
... AT is interfering with gesture

David: confirming that doesn't work with voiceover on. I can view 
everything offscreen, but it doesn't scroll interview. I'm on the screen 
but on the screen all I see is up to row 12

Kathy: messed up for anyone with low vision

David: three finger swipe down doesn't scroll it

Kathy: how about using pointer events to change the position

<marcjohlic> https://github.com/cubiq/iscroll

David: Marc, I think this is a wonderful example we need to figure out 
why it doesn't work

Kathy: any other examples we should be looking at
... Marc, you mentioned the developer wasn't interested in trying to 
figure this out

Marc: we told our folks to use a different plug-in instead

Kathy: can you send a note on the mailing list -- quite a few people who 
are watching us are more technical and may be able to figure that out

Detlev: something like the 4 finger swipe -- assume that this is 
available -- get to bottom of page, then swipe backwards

David: it's an escape, but it sounds like a hack -- we wouldn't want 
people to have to do that...

Detlev: is that something we need to take into account, if there are 
gestures that are documented

David: we have lots of precedents for failures for things that just make 
it difficult -- it doesn't have to be a complete failure to be a failure

Kathy: with the I scroll can you do a passthrough gesture to make it work
... so we'll do more research, Marc you will send that out on the 
mailing list
... are there any techniques or failures we can list under here right now

David: 2.5.1 example

Kathy: not even keyboard accessible

Jon: if it could be made keyboard accessible, maybe it would work

Kathy: no keyboard handlers on that
... anything else for 2.5.2?


      2.5.3

Kathy: Finger lift triggers event. No comments on the survey on this 
one. Thoughts? Techniques or failures that would go under this one?

Detlev: this is from the BBC mobile accessibility guidelines -- they 
have a checkpoint for that. It's a no screenreader active kind of technique

Kathy: we should look at the examples under the BBC

David: we have to define what a long press is

<david> link to bbc

<david> ?

Marc: if you kept pressing but then move your finger away I wasn't sure 
how to define that -- lifting your finger would be moving away also

<Kathy_> 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/focus/touch-events

Detlev: compare points. Same as usability function -- only activate on 
mouseup -- same thing

Jon: in iOS use touch location, use final touch location. That says this 
is an issue.

Kathy: is this a problem for all users

Jon: worse for people with disabilities, but in theory yes

Kathy: looking at BBC examples, failure for touchstart gesture -- should 
we have something that specific to Ontuchstart and keydown

David: haven't heard of that is a problem

Jon: with touch it's a bigger issue touch location has a bigger influence

David: what we have heard in the last couple of days is we can't change 
WCAG -- we can't make new failures based on new technologies and then 
map to 1.3.1 or something, at least that seems to be the sentiment. Can 
in extensions.
... this is the place to make new requirements for WCAG extension. Won't 
get it into the main document

Detlev: Can meet the descriptive link success criteria by having a 
heading above the link -- this technique is no longer under sufficient, 
would fail now

Jon: JAWS supported that but other assistive technologies did not

David: I think the extension is a good place to put it

Kathy: so we want to put an Ontouchstart failure in here. What about key 
down
... would that fall here or under keyboard

Jon: we have to qualify this -- could be potential situations where it 
may be acceptable -- maybe on-screen keyboard. I'm worried if we don't 
have some kind of exception for it...

Worried that there some situations that could make this a failure

David: exception, drawing, but drawing doesn't do anything on touching 
down anyway

Kathy: if we were going to try to restrict this further we would need an 
example of where this would not work

Jon: what about icons -- touch and hold, long press move icon around.
... you can lift your finger to cancel it so add something like unless 
event has been canceled. If you hold and move your icon if you just 
release it it goes back to normal

Kathy: unless the event can be canceled. Or do we need to be more 
specific than that?

Jon: depends what the definition of canceled is? I be fine putting 
canceled and for now -- cancel is different from undo.

Kathy: so how can you cancel drag-and-drop

Jon: in this specific case -- unless you start moving the icon around, 
an iOS it reorders itself and so you can't put it back to where it was

David: hit the home button

Jon: home turns off the shaky movement, but doesn't but the icon back 
where it was

Kathy: maybe we have an exception for drag-and-drop?
... you could have a failure ontouchstart and drag-and-drop would be an 
exception for that -- is that going to be a problem for failure... We 
could have a technique on touch and a failure for ontouchstart

Jon: I think we should have failures for all

Kathy: propose a title?

Marc: the BBC language is kind of close -- "removed from a control" I 
don't know if removed is right -- needs intention

<david> Touch events are only be triggered when touch is removed from a 
control

<jon_avila> Failure of SC 2.5.3 due to activating a button on initial 
touch location rather than the final touch location

Kathy: the BBC is written in a different tone than WCAG


      Logistics

Kathy: I want to start writing up techniques and failures. We have two, 
does anyone want to take an action -- we can do it collaboratively too
... sometime in the next month

Jon: I can do the failure -- can get it to you after Christmas

Kathy: target is first week in January, John you have the failure for 2.5.3

David: need definition for long press

Detlev: is it supposed to be a general technique or an HTML specific 
technique providing access for custom controls

<jon_avila> long press: pressing and holding on an item for a short 
time, usually opens additional menus or acts as a click-and-drag function

Kathy: we are doing HTML, not doing native apps right now so this would 
be HTML

Detlev: would be useful to have a test full of good and bad examples -- 
difficult to relate to without it

Kathy: next week maybe we can put some concrete examples to them, then 
start working on them

David: pput me down for writing techniques for 2.5.3

Kathy: trying to get touch and pointer fleshed out as much as we can so 
when we go to

publish a draft we've got some concrete stuff that's not out there right 
now for mobile. We've done a lot of great work in this area, now put 
examples around it.

Detlev: I can draft providing access for touch controls

Jeanne: what David proposes a new success criteria for drag-and-drop

Kathy: that's a technique and failure under 2.5.3

Marc: will tackle a general failure around functionality not being 
available when AT is activated
... writing out full technique or just coming up with things that would 
fit under it?

Kathy: whole technique


    Summary of Action Items


    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 
<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> 
version 1.144 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
$Date: 2015/12/03 17:08:31 $

------------------------------------------------------------------------