- From: Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:58:06 +0100
- To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Cc: mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CABOtQmGFBQjx6JTYJWjQs806bpFQQP-ZJT8DR4MaPcRrCLmhpA@mail.gmail.com>
Thank you, Ivan. Best, Peter. On Jan 29, 2018 15:52, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org> wrote: > No problems. > > Ivan > > On 29 Jan 2018, at 15:49, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com> > wrote: > > Hi Ivan, > > I'm sorry about my previous message. I've grown very frustrated trying to > respond on this thread as I seem unable to make myself understood and I > seem unable to understand your position. > > However, my last email was simply rude for which I apologize. It does not > represent the way I wish to communicate on this list or elsewhere; I will > do better in the future. > > With best regards, > Peter. > > 2018-01-27 17:39 GMT+01:00 Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>: > >> Hi Ivan, >> >> It's difficult to reply as there are many details in your message that >> are off, uninformed or incorrect. >> >> I think we fundamentally do not understand each other; we do not >> understand how each of us views the current state of affairs, the available >> tools and standards, what each of us considers to be problems see or how to >> try to resolve them. >> >> So I cannot even agree to disagree as it would presume an understanding >> of each other's position. >> >> Peter. >> >> >> >> >> 2018-01-26 13:41 GMT+01:00 Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>: >> >>> Hi Peter, >>> >>> indeed, we do not seem to find a common ground:-( so let us try again. >>> Reset (symbolically, I removed all the previous threads from this mail:-). >>> >>> The discussion started with your statement whereby you think MathML >>> should be removed from HTML. What I was trying to understand is what you >>> would replace it with. Put it another way, if there is no MathML in HTML, >>> what is the vision of displaying math in a Web page? >>> >>> What I could *gather* from your replies and also some of our earlier >>> discussions is that, in your view: >>> >>> 1. Authors should use *some* tools (authoring tools, AI, simple screen >>> editors, whatever) to author/describe their math content. Let thousands of >>> tools bloom. >>> 2. Some process, possibly bound to these tools, would turn, on the >>> server side, these formulae into HTML+CSS+SVG content and incorporate those >>> directly into the overall HTML of the enclosing Web page. (Let us put >>> issues of accessibility and interactivity aside for now.) >>> 3. That web page then displays in the browser as usual and everybody is >>> happy:-) >>> >>> MathML, in this view, is "reduced" (although that sounds pejorative, >>> which is not my intention) to, e.g., publishing workflow usage, part of >>> step (1) above, it can be used for interchange among mathematical systems, >>> etc. And, in a way, that is also what happens often in practice, except >>> that, instead of HTML+CSS+SVG, MathML content is turned into images. >>> >>> If this is indeed your vision, then it is obviously a radical departure >>> from the current HTML+MathML approach. The fundamental difference, in my >>> view, is that the math rendering happens on the client vs. the server side. >>> And, I believe, that is also at the core of our disagreement: I am not >>> convinced that this is the right architecture. >>> >>> I think we can agree that the CSS+HTML+SVG "encoding" (let me call it >>> this way) for a mathematical formula is extremely verbose. You guys have >>> much more data on this than I would ever have, but I believe my gut feeling >>> is correct. That means the load will be on the amount of data transferred >>> to the client over the wire; that may very well become a major bottleneck. >>> The processing power of clients is, after all, getting huge and I do not >>> see that evolution slowing down; the speed of the network is far from >>> following that pace. There are other problems with this architecture (eg, I >>> am a bit worried about the extreme proliferation of different tools and >>> conversion engines) but that is the essential one. >>> >>> What it means is that I still believe the fundamental architecture of >>> the current HTML+MathML is right: use a succinct representation of >>> mathematics on the wire and let the client do the job. Hence the necessity, >>> again in my view, of having such succinct representation as a standard. >>> >>> Now... we know there are problems, to say the least, with the >>> practicalities today. And it may well be that MathML does not hit the right >>> target in making that architecture viable. For example, one of the comments >>> I often get is that MathML is aiming way too high: the goal is to be able >>> to represent PhD level mathematics, whereas, on the Web, the mass >>> publication would what our American friends call K12 or even elementary >>> mathematics. Ie, maybe the current approach should be changed by replacing >>> MathML with something simpler. Also, the implementation strategies used so >>> far may not have been not the good ones, because they did not use CSS & co >>> properly. Etc. And, probably, the two architectures will have to coexist >>> side-by-side and we have to understand the details. So yes, the current >>> situation does need improvement. >>> >>> Do we at least agree where we disagree? >>> >>> Ivan >>> >>> P.S. You realized that I did not use the L-word, right? :-) >>> >>> ---- >>> Ivan Herman, W3C >>> Publishing@W3C Technical Lead >>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ >>> mobile: +31-641044153 <+31%206%2041044153> >>> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 >>> >>> >> > > > ---- > Ivan Herman, W3C > Publishing@W3C Technical Lead > Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ > mobile: +31-641044153 <+31%206%2041044153> > ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 > >
Received on Monday, 29 January 2018 14:58:51 UTC