Re: [MathOnWeb] call for comments -- directions for 2018

Hi Ivan,

> 1. Let us say we deprecate MathML from HTML5. What exactly would you
propose to replace it on a larger level?

No replacement is necessary.

Presentation MathML defines a set of tags alongside a (quite vague)
specification for using them to realize traditional/print equation layout.
These tags have no semantic value, just layout value (even if heuristics
can guess partial meaning from layout+domain, cf., speech-rule-engine,
MathPlayer).

It's not even hyperbole to say that since jsmath was released in 2004, it
has been clear CSS can provide traditional equation layout at the highest
quality. It may have been hacky (but what JS library wasn't in 2004) but in
the mean time using CSS for equation layout has become steadily easier to
do (as the increasing number of rendering tools demonstrate). In addition,
SVG began providing a second option for laying out equational content.
There's even a canvas-based solution.

It seems odd not to expect this development to continue to the point where
experienced developers will be able to write an equation rendering tool for
their projects; much like they could create a grid layout tool (even before
CSS grids). I'd like to see that speed up but past experience shows CSS
will get there one way or another.

For ContenMathML, it's a slightly different question. It is about semantics
and we lack those; but it's not seen on the web outside of niches. While
many people seem to want a way to express mathematical (and perhaps STEM)
semantics that actually work on the web, Content MathML doesn't seem to be
a good fit. So even here, I don't think "replacement" is needed; more like
a clean slate that doesn't repeat its mistakes.

> Would it mean that one would have standardized syntaxes like Ascii or
LaTex and… what is then the next step?

I don't see how authoring is relevant. One can build tools to create
CSS/SVG/etc-based layout any which way one likes. What kind of internal
data format is used is probably relatively disconnected from rendering.
Obviously, MathML is going to stick around for this as it makes a lot of
sense with an XMLy backend format. (But as I wrote I think something like
CommonMark for ascii-like notations would be good.)

> Would we define some sort of an HTML extension through Web Components,
for example?

I don't know any tool that does rendering this way but I suppose you could
build a rendering tool that's based around web components. (Or perhaps you
are thinking about a set of components as an authoring tool which I also
haven't seen but could imagine.)

> I am obviously interested (mostly) on how to provide a standard
environment where Math is easily accessible for a lambda web designer,
which is what we all want…

I'm afraid I don't quite understand this part.

> 2. I am also not sure about your second point. Would it mean that you
would want to expand on MathML's functionalities that are not related to
Web usage?

Not me personally but I've met enough people who want to do this, yes.
Again, it's about features that people need outside of the web but those
features would make MathML duplicate even more functionality that's better
done elsewhere in the web stack (e.g., going beyond the scope of an
individual <math> tag, being more visual). If it wasn't included, MathML's
elementary math notation would be another example.

Best regards,
Peter.


2018-01-13 9:07 GMT+01:00 Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>:

> Hi Peter,
>
> > On 12 Jan 2018, at 17:05, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Let me try to kick things off by posting my own thoughts.
> >
> >
> <skip>
> > > 2. what directions do you want/hope/wish/expect to see take shape?
> >
> > On the scope of the group, I hope we find additional focus areas that
> can bring additional contributors. Two potential areas I see are the
> standardization of ascii-like equation input languages and richer semantics
> from computational tools.
> >
> > On the large scope, let me be seemingly negative here: I hope that 2018
> will be the year that sees MathML being deprecated from HTML5.
> >
> > It will be 20 years in April since MathML 1 became a REC and it is no
> step closer to browser vendors giving a damn about it. I think the key
> reason nowadays is that MathML has simply become an outdated technology for
> the web: it may have been a good fit for the web of the 1990s but today it
> goes against that grain of the web.
> >
> > I think deprecating MathML from HTML 5 would be a positive step forward
> for two reasons.
> >
> > First, the empty promises of MathML hold the web back. As long as native
> MathML solutions remain an expectation,  it will continue to reduce
> leverage for more useful specs (i.e., parts for actually supported
> standards like CSS or ARIA). This means general web developers continue to
> miss out on good features because they don't have the support of those
> people hoping to see MathML - in particular of course those developers
> whose equation-related tools actually help the community -- MathJax,
> speech-rule-engine, mathlive, katex, mathquill, jqmath etc etc.
> >
> > Second, being part of HTML5 is holding MathML back. There are plenty of
> problems and limitations of the MathML spec specific to XML land where
> MathML still fits well into the technology stack. MathML should become
> better in the areas where it always succeeded rather than where it always
> failed, i.e., in XML documents and their workflows rather than the web.
> >
>
>
> Would it be possible to expand a little bit on these points? Because, I am
> afraid, I do not really understand…
>
> 1. Let us say we deprecate MathML from HTML5. What exactly would you
> propose to replace it on a larger level? Would it mean that one would have
> standardized syntaxes like Ascii or LaTex and… what is then the next step?
> Would we define some sort of an HTML extension through Web Components, for
> example?
>
> I am obviously interested (mostly) on how to provide a standard
> environment where Math is easily accessible for a lambda web designer,
> which is what we all want…
>
> 2. I am also not sure about your second point. Would it mean that you
> would want to expand on MathML's functionalities that are not related to
> Web usage?
>
> I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I just want to understand…
>
> Thanks
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Publishing@W3C Technical Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
>
>