RE: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Oh! The perennial k-12 basic math problem.

And this is where things start to go toward the "dark arts" in Ken Rawson of the IEEE's opinion.

There's no way to completely separate presentation from semantic meaning in elementary math since the students learn the meaning as much from the visualized format as they do from the logical concepts that go with the format. The fact that there is no one international format compounds the problem.

I did some toolbar work in MathFlow a few years that pulled in some of David Carlisle's CTOP markup in order to get elementary math to work in MathJax. It was very template intensive and required a lot of extra nudging by including mspace and mphantom elements. It wasn't pretty but it got the job done in that instance.

I still have the photo samples from that particular project.

I officially work for MHE higher ed now which has some requirements for elementary math constructs - especially in remedial materials. I can request samples from a contact in K-12 if required. I'll need to know what grade range and specific topic you guys want to see in order to get samples.

Also, the big thing in K-12 math these days is less about two dimensional layouts and more about "everyday" math. These problems are highly graphic and very much related to counting, ordering, and sorting, e.g., "here is a handful of change from Johnny's pocket. How much money does he have?" With an image of a variety of coins of different denominations. This stuff is way different from the worksheets of my K-12 experience. The approach gained popularity in the early 90s (I know this because this is when my own kid was taking math and I was helping with homework).

Please let me know what samples are important in terms of group priorities. Don't have priorities? I'm happy to suggest stating with long division and stacked addition/subtraction/multiplication including the need to demonstrate worked out problems. This stuff was the most intensive stuff I had to work with in my MathFlow configuration project because every new column in either direction required yet another template to support not only the column, but also the need to support cross-outs and carry-overs.

Hope this helps you guys envision some of the things I was working on. I'm happy to discuss further. I think that there's a lot of progress that could be made by all of the math authoring and rendering tools out there.

Best,

Jean Kaplansky
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068 (tel:+1.518.930.1068)
jeankap@earthlink.net
@jeankaplansky

On May 3, 2017, 11:46 AM -0400, Pedersen, John - Hoboken <jpederse@wiley.com>, wrote:
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> Sorry, didn’t use the right terminology. We were talking about differences around the world in layout for explaining/doing various fairly rudimentary mathematics. Think of long division: apparently the way of presenting this in classrooms around the world varies significantly, although they probably all use some sort of two-dimensional layout. We were talking about extending MathML to cover some such things (long division may already be fairly well handled).
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> From: Jean Kaplansky [mailto:jeankap@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 11:40 AM
> To: Jean Kaplansky; public-mathonw.; Pedersen, John - Hoboken
> Subject: RE: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap
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> Ahh. Yes. We definitely have K-12 and Higher Ed math. Two-dimensional layout? What specifically are you guys looking for? Graphs?
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> Thanks,
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> Jean Kaplansky
> Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
> Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
> Instructional Designer
> +1.518.930.1068 (tel:+1.518.930.1068)
> jeankap@earthlink.net (mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net)
> @jeankaplansky
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> On May 3, 2017, 11:17 AM -0400, Pedersen, John - Hoboken <jpederse@wiley.com (mailto:jpederse@wiley.com)>, wrote:
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> Jean,
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> My comment was actually about Jacaranda Wiley content (our only high-school-level content where the kind of two-dimensional layout that we were discussing might occur). But yes, MHE may have a lot more primary- and secondary-level content.
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> From: Jean Kaplansky [mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 11:08 AM
> To: public-mathonw.
> Subject: Fwd: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap
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> Examples from Wiley books? Better to ask Tzviya than Jean.
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> Jean, however, can take requests for MHE books. What are you guys looking for specifically?
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> Jean Kaplansky
> Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
> Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
> Instructional Designer
> +1.518.930.1068 (tel:(518)%20930-1068)
> jeankap@earthlink.net (mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net)
> @jeankaplansky
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> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org (mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org)> wrote:
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> Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week.
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> ## mathonweb CG, 2017/04/27
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> * Present: Peter, Dani, Volker, Charles, John, Sam, Neil
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> Updates from the a11y TF
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> * Daniel: back to math role
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> * now feel it's useful, like img but not "... image" but (sometimes) "...(math)"
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> * Volker: still concerned about "math"
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> * not general enough for scientific content (e.g., chemistry)
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> * e.g., "equation"
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> * Daniel: agree need for more general
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> * Peter: as per last discussion, roledescription seems destined for htat
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> * but "...math" might be more vendor-specific, so we could approach them
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> * Peter: do you feel ready to discuss with ARIA WG?
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> * coordinate, ask them what we can provide them with, how we might help positively shape
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> * Daniel: and simply get to know each other
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> * ACTION Yes
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> * intro: Sam Dooley
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> * invovled in MML from earliest days
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> * MathWG
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> * Pearson, School Assessment
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> * previously IBM, Netscape plugin techexplorer, turned into math equation editor, now JS, used in TestNav Testing platforms
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> * about 30million ContentMathML for high stakes assessment, machine scored by automated scoring services
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> * also free responses that are hand coded
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> * recently extended for a11y (Nemeth input&output)
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> * intro: Neil Soiffer
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> * used to work on MathPlayer at Design Science
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> * MathWG member
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> * a11y for a long time
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> * Peter: about role=math problems
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> * TF had thought about this as first step for talking to ARIA
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> * But now suggest to leave it since it can't be changed much
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> * Daniel: in favor of role=math as a good role
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> * and https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-roledescription would help as well
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> * Peter: planned reaching out to ARIA WG for joint call
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> * a11y TF in a good place to start discussion
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> * Daniel: explain what our problems are
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> * e.g., advanced tools for navigating
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> * Daniel: demo of WIRIS, http://www.wiris.net/demo/editor/tests/en/test.html
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> * JAWS, NVDA, Narrator works; VoiceOver is a problem
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> * uses live regions
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> * preview of speech text in page (both live and complete string)
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> * Volker: ChromeVox were you using the extension or ChromeVox.next?
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> * Charles: are those regions assertive or polite?
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> * => assertive
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> * Daniel: if you test, keep in mind that the live region lives elsewhere
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> change CG meetings to topic-oriented cycling (layout, accessibility, notation)
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> * Peter: agenda item: reorganizing meetings
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> * focused themes, cycle through topics we identified last year to bring back lurkers
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> * Dani: makes prepping meetings easier, with
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> * John: personal time-limitations would make single meeting easier
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> * Volker: smaller meetings were more productive, focus might bring down number of participants
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> * Neil: monday time is too hard for PST, focus is good
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> * => agreed
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> * Peter: topic for next meeting
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> * layout, notations
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> * Neil: how about human notation/layout that are not currently represented on the web
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> * human notations for teaching procedural
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> * Peter: great idea, never seen a survey of that
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> * John: examples from Wiley books might be useful
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> * Peter: ACTION ask Jean
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> * Peter: related: latinreq, https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/#equations
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> * Neil: would be interested in non-US examples
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> * Peter: next meeting topic: layout?
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> * => agreed
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