- From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
- Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 16:51:49 -0700
- To: public-mathml4@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CAESRWkBDOuTRxZq0a4=5_5D=ueEEf3=Q6X6q5pg+Yub49QLYRw@mail.gmail.com>
Someone accidentally left their zoom session open and the recording caught
some personal conversations. The previously linked recording has been
deleted and a new recording (sans extra stuff at the end) is at:
GMT20200928-175959_MathML-Cor_edited.mp4
<https://benetech.box.com/s/vomzpl32k777z7lho7b1020skdjdi2rl>. Many thanks
to Charles for taking the time to edit the recording and produce a new
version. Also thanks to Deyan (who was not the person who left his zoom
session open) for letting us know.
Neil
On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:56 AM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Attendees:
>
> -
>
> Neil Soiffer
> -
>
> Brian Kardell
> -
>
> Louis Maher
>
>
> -
>
> David Carlisle
>
>
> -
>
> Murray Sargent
> -
>
> Bruce Miller
> -
>
> Patrick Ion
>
>
>
>
> Agenda:
> https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/8#issuecomment-699753792
>
> The meeting was recorded:
> https://benetech.zoom.us/rec/share/A9Uq8szPKnT0WiLEtUsJrxNHFDkQ9Plcsd39F7GXJpxL-L5RqHOFZ7GN_FKI-iDc.cKuILMzuUfL6BGdm
> (Access Passcode: =TOy!855) The meeting starts ~5 min in
>
> Thanks to Patrick for doing the minutes.
> Charter Timelines
>
> https://mathml-refresh.github.io/charter-drafts/math-2020.html
>
> -
>
> Core Level 1
>
> NS: we need dates
>
> BK: maybe Q1 2022
>
> NS: for the whole thing maybe 2024
>
> BK: just say beginning normative work and WD expected
>
> NS: Q1 2022 for Test Suite and Impl Reports; is that all?
>
> BK: Yes from my POV; we have 2300 or so tests (perhaps less with those for
> features we backed out removed)
>
>
>
> -
>
> Core Level 2
> -
>
> Other Deliverables:
> -
>
> Test Suites
> -
>
> Implementation Reports
> -
>
> ???
>
>
> Resolving more issues:Applying visual effects #179
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/179>
>
> NS: Rob not here, so no update.
> BK; there’s lots going on in October, in partic in Igalia
>
> automatic size adjustment: #225
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/225> Updates?
>
> BK: No update
>
> U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS in mo operators: #146
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/146> => write a polyfill?
> Updates?
>
> No update
>
> Include mo@accent attribute into MathML Core? #210
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/210> Didn't reach any
> conclusions last time.
>
> NS: Brian and I had some discussion on implementation. Here’s a codepen:
> https://codepen.io/nms/pen/bGpQjmP
>
> NS: queston is how this affects spec; Fred wants accent on mo’s to be
> ignored; I claim irt breaks rendering of lots of legacy content.
>
> MS: rerun with accent=false makes it look quite different
>
> NS: That shouldn’t affect stretching
>
> MS: arrow got stretched but is higher and bolder
>
> NS: I’ll get example images paced into the issue for a better discussion
> to follow
>
> MS: [put in before] The MathML with accents Neil gave displays in
> OfficeMath as
>
> The MathML used here is
>
> </math>
>
> <p>With accent explicitly off</p>
>
> <math display="block">
>
> <mover>
>
> <mi>a</mi>
>
> <mo>^</mo>
>
> </mover>
>
> <mo>+</mo>
>
> <mover>
>
> <mrow>
>
> <mi>a</mi>
>
> <mo>+</mo>
>
> <mi>b</mi>
>
> </mrow>
>
> <mo>^</mo>
>
> </mover>
>
> <mo>+</mo>
>
> <mover>
>
> <mrow>
>
> <mi>a</mi>
>
> <mo>+</mo>
>
> <mi>b</mi>
>
> </mrow>
>
> <mo>→</mo>
>
> </mover>
>
> </math>
>
> MS: with accent=”false”, it looks different
>
> MS: with accent=”true”, looks the same as the first (with no accent
> attribute).
>
> MS: for the a\above(x->y), the accent attribute doesn’t change anything
> (first has accent=”true”, second accent=”false”). The OfficeMath accent
> object only handles a single accent character.
>
> Left: WebKit (linux/no mathjax) right: chrome+mathjax
>
> On Safari 14.0 on a Mac OS 10.14.6 (as the CodePen with mathJax commented
> out)
>
> Add scriptsizemultiplier to core #230
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/230>/ #1
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/1>
>
> NS: was in MathML3; then we decided to remove this and rely on the
> OpenMath table; however, this ignores visual problems and there it is
> useful to have this possibility; study has shown it is useful; so it is
> suggested to put it back
>
> MS: I think you can argue that this should be in a a11y setting;
>
> NS: subscripts may not be better reduced
>
> NS: I agree with MS that should be optional and settable by the user; but
> that means this attribute cannot go away for you can’t control it if it’s
> not there in Core.
>
> MS: if there’s an open path to deal with this it;s OK; in our environment
> there are lots of ways to cope; maybe CSS
>
> NS: if it’s not there then CSS can’t control it; that’s why we need the
> attribute back; people with low vision change the defaults for small font
> sizes; renderers can then see that there’s been an override; so
> scriptsizemultiplier =0.9 maybe would be invoked
>
> BK: I don’t have a comment on the a11y details; though everyone is for a11y
>
> MS: it’s a real long shot to get this in; a11y can be improved later
>
> BK: you can zoom your font any time
>
> MS: any time
>
> NS: that changes the whole screen; if it’s just the math with subscripts
> that is the problem then this multiplier allows …
>
> BK; we also don’t support line breaking which affects even more persons,
> surely
>
> NS: the objection to allowing this is that it’s one more piece of work to
> do
>
> MS: hyphen minus is more important
>
> NS: I guess I’m being asked to show examples of where there’s support and
> give images
>
> LM: people could use voice
>
> BK: or magnifiers
>
> NS: the people I’ve talked to don’t do that; 24pt is often used but this
> is about subscripts
>
> DC: even without a scale factor exposed can’t you, say, CSS style the 2nd
> child of msub to have 200%; it’s not a complete washout with
> scriptsizemultiplier not exposed; nested subscripts are not all that
> common; one CSS rule would surely get 90% of the cases
>
> <<<
>
> PI: this is about User Style Sheets (USS) then perhaps
>
> BK: I think they may have gone out of style Chrome removed them in v 33
>
> NS: I should ask about it at an upcoming a11y; 2 people I know with vision
> problems did in fact use USS
>
> BK: ...
>
> MS: OfficeMath doesn’t do anything with scriptsizemultiplier. Maybe it
> should or have some way to implement this for accessibility
>
> NS: [ACTION] I’ll check what low-vision people are using these days;
> maybe they don’t use Chrome, say.
>
> ----
>
>
> Mstyle mathvariant inheritance and mi #204
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/204>/#1
> <https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/1> (comment by Neil to
> remove mathvariant on mstyle)
>
> NS: could be the last ‘needs resolution’ item
>
> NS: Fred’s forcing onto token elements is a bit of implementation
> complication
>
> NS: Discussion starts at
> https://github.com/mathml-refresh/mathml/issues/1#issuecomment-675725381
>
> MS: The following MathML turns off math italic
>
> <?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?>
>
> <mml:math xmlns:mml="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" display="block"
> mathvariant="normal">
>
> <mml:mi>E</mml:mi>
>
> <mml:mo>=</mml:mo>
>
> <mml:mi>m</mml:mi>
>
> <mml:msup>
>
> <mml:mi>c</mml:mi>
>
> <mml:mn>2</mml:mn>
>
> </mml:msup>
>
> </mml:math>
>
>
> BM: I don’t see any compelling reason, but if it’s hard to implement
>
> NS: technically mathvariant doesn’t need to be there; but it allows the
> power to screw things up
>
> DC: there are useful cases; e.g. when you want to put sans-serif is being
> used, in TeX you out \mathff around things; but to convert to MathML is
> more difficult
>
> MS: I just put mathvariant=normal on the math tag and it turned all math
> italic off; that could be useful
>
> BK:
>
> BM: we shouldn’t confuse what we can do with what you should do
>
> <<<
>
> NS; consensus :’Keep mathvariant on mstyle’
>
> BK Fred on May 22 in issue 204 seems to have something about universal
> selectors ; now it’s unclear what is intended.
>
> NS: I hope the tests are testing what ‘faceless2’ (mike B..) wanted
>
> BK:
>
> WPT relevant tests are at:
> https://wpt.fyi/results/mathml/relations/css-styling?label=experimental&label=master&aligned
>
> [PI stops trying to minute]
>
>
>
>
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Received on Monday, 5 October 2020 23:52:11 UTC