Re: Minutes: MathML Intent meeting: 10 Dec, 2020

My apologies if I conveyed the idea that you endorsed schema.org as what we
should do. It is simply an alternative approach which you have some
knowledge about. I and I'm sure others appreciate your willingness to
inform the CG about it so that we can discuss the pros and cons of it.

    Neil


On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 4:18 AM Moritz Schubotz <moritz@schubotz.org> wrote:

> Dear Neil, Dear Deyan, dear all,
>
> while I am happy to present existing RDFa/microdata technologies later
> this week, I would like to use the chance to clarify my intentions
> since I do not want to act as an ambassador for anything else as
> content MathML.
>
> I think the list Deyan proposed is already now a great achievement. If
> each content MathML element has a generally accepted default
> presentation element, we already have achieved a great way in the task
> of inferring content from presentation. However, default also implies
> that there needs to be a mechanism to specify, this is not the default
> case. How the orthogonal concept of intent attributes helps with this
> job is not clear to me.
>
> In my little presentation, I will be covering this scope
> https://schema.org/docs/gs.html
>
> With some additions to the link of schema.org and Wikidata, see
> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1186
> and
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Schema.org
>
> Deyan, maybe you can add your points afterwards?
>
> Moritz
> https://schubotz.org | +49 1578 047 1397
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 9:25 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Notes thanks to Louis Maher. The discussion was detailed and involved
> screen sharing-- it is best to listen to/view the recording:
> >
> >
> https://us02web.zoom.us/rec/share/QEmF8jMfuBGT_1HID63xfgRDXOfPI6Hz17p0MGG4YupRUZeTfxTGvfStH2ZjZOyD.TzJ0yQeYPDJaKGYd
> >
> > Access Passcode: W56%ko#P
> >
> >
> > Attendees:
> >
> > Neil Soiffer
> >
> > Louis Maher
> >
> > Bruce Miller
> >
> > David Carlisle
> >
> > Deyan Ginev
> >
> > Steve Noble
> >
> > David Farmer
> >
> > Sam Dooley
> >
> > Murray Sargent
> >
> >
> >
> > Agenda:
> >
> > 1. Any updates?
> >
> > NS: next week, Moritz will give a presentation on schema.org.
> >
> >
> > SD: there will be an aria deep dive for Braille next week.
> >
> >
> > DG: has completed his table (Level 3 sheet), 964 entries at this stage,
> as *preliminary* names with stable notations in encyclopedic resources:
> >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EsWou1K5nxBdLPvQapdoA9h-s8lg_qjn8fJH64g9izQ/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> >
> > ...Taking all of levels 1,2 and 3 we now have more than 1,000 “names”.
> >
> >
> > 2. The group will (once again) attempt to finish an update on Sam's
> ideas for explicit and default values for intent (esp for mtable):  See
> >
> > https://mathml-refresh.github.io/mathml/docs/intent.html
> >
> >
> > SD: talked about @append. Acts a bit like an unevaluated mrow.
> >
> > … some don’t like that
> >
> >
> > SD: discussed bound variables.
> >
> >
> >
> > DG: discussed mover versus msup.
> >
> >
> > SD: discussed equation arrays using tables. Mtd acts like an mrow.
> >
> >
> > SD: discussed breaking an equation over multiple rows. @append and
> @extend. This is an example where you can’t eval the @append right away
> because the next row might extend it.
> >
> >
> > Discussion/unease of unevaluated mrows came again. Really just want to
> concatenate the two rows together. Algorithm could use look ahead and not
> finish the append.
> >
> > NS: what about an idea analogous to rowspan/colspan where the first mtr
> says how many rows belong to it? No idea on what syntax for that is like.
> >
> > DG: Really mainly want to throw away table wrappers and glom stuff
> together. Maybe we should be thinking about a “next” feature. Maybe
> left/right/up/down/diagonal dir to say where to get the next element.
> >
> > NS: Need some way to stay “done”.
> >
> > DG: Almost always want natural top/down left/right reading order, so
> maybe start/stop is what is needed with default being reading order.
> >
> >
> > SD: anything other people want clarified about my proposal?
> >
> > BM: still not clear on ‘@’ syntax.
> >
> > NS: would like to eliminate $named variables because you have to dive
> into the intent to find out what the $named variable means.
> >
> > DG: I have a couple of “awkward” examples. One is a subsup, where the
> sup is a ‘prime’. So one structure for deriv(index($1,$2),$3). See “awkward
> nesting (1)” in https://dginev.github.io/tiny-mathml-a11y-demo. The other
> is “awkward nesting(2)” -- an msub of an mover representing “an x with a
> bar over it”. In this case, the structure gets flipped inside out.
> >
> > NS: interesting cases, but neither require looking inside an intent.
> >
> >
> > Challenge to everyone -- find examples where there is not a simple work
> around (as in the case for nested integrals) to diving inside of an
> ‘intent’ to reference a child.
> >
> >
> > Action Item: DG and NS will flush out their suggestions to extend SD’s
> document.
> >
> >
> > NS: next meeting will be Dec 17 where Moritz will talk about schema.org
> and RDFa/microdata approaches.
> >
> > NS: Then a break for the holidays followed by a meeting January 7, 2021.
> NS and DG to present their ideas then.
> >
> >
> >
>