LVTF Minutes

Hello everyone,

Minutes from  today's teleconference can be accessed as hypertext at:
https://www.w3.org/2021/12/02-lvtf-minutes.html

and as plain text following this announcement --  please report any
errors, omissions, clarifications, mis-attributions, and the like by
replying-to this announcement on-list...

Thanks.

Kindest Regards,
Laura

- DRAFT -
Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
02 Dec 2021
Attendees

Present
    AlastairC, AndySomers, Bhoomika, Laura_Carlson, MichaelC,
Shawn(IRC), jon_avila, Sam
Regrets
Chair
    Jon
Scribe
    Laura

Contents

    Topics
        Proximity https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/133
        Alternative themes (high contrast, dark mode)
https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/139
    Summary of Action Items
    Summary of Resolutions

<laura_> Scribe: Laura

trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 02 December 2021

<scribe> Scribe: Laura

<scribe> Chair: Jon

<jon_avila> rrsagent?

Jon: 4 items on the agenda today.
... anything to add?

sam: categorizing guidelines.

jon: still don’t have a plan for going forward. need guidance from AG.
... 3 bits of discussion that need feedback.
... Supplemental Guidance Template Discussion , Template - User
mini-personas or not?, Template section headings
... Supplemental Guidance Template Discussion sh and I have commented
on this one,
... would like input.

<jon_avila> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/142

jon: not specific personas. looking for input on this one too.

<jon_avila> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/140

User Stories | User Needs | User Experience has one comment from sam.

scribe: any questions?

sam: can’t remember what I said. I like user stories.
... could have examples.
... could be visual examples of things going right.
... odd to have getting started before more details… if it is needed.
... Sam prefers "User Stories".

bb: fond alternative teams confusing.

andy: doesn’t say what kind of examples. Could split them.
... could help to thead the examples throughout.

ac: +1 to personas and visual examples

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to suggest drafting one or two, then
revisit if it is working.

ac: reasonable structure to start with. Will know more after some are drafted.

<Sam> +1 for using the mini personas to thread examples

bb: support section- what does that mean?

jon: browser support. how it works.

<Sam> +1 for trying out the structure on a handful of topics, and then
confirm suitability for the remaining topics

jon: AT support. what combinations work.

andy: maybe note it as technology hurdles.

Jon: user agents and AT

sam: compatibility or UA compatibility
Proximity https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/133

jon: one that lc wrote.
... andy commented as well.
... read through and comment.

sam: distance in terms of pixels. add something to visual structure.
... things within sets. not just physical distance.

jon: not just color either.
... clue about relationships.
... could mention or not or update to be more broad than proximity.
... helps coga too.

andy: this is another area of contrast.

want to stay way from absolute items. It is more relative.

scribe: plain flat color may not help us.

<Sam> +1 Andy's comment: ensure relative proximity is maintained with
specified zoom

jon: if people are zoomed in how to relate that things are not missed.
... sounds like an item that is related.

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to check on the how-detailed question

<Sam> either by pixel distance or other graphical techniques
(alignment, lightness contrast, background colours)

ac: how detailed.
... what lc put in is a good length.
... related content needs to be close together . not everything.

jon: card view or list view. I pick card.
... 3 topics.

<Sam> +1 we should highlight Jon's example of basket add / 'cart
refresh' not been visible with zoom,

<jon_avila> q>

jon: may have to come back to some of these.

bb: maybe have larger themes in the guidance.
... then link the smaller items.

jon: we do have some categories.
... maybe have a matrix.

<jon_avila> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/125

jon: add more detials in the Supplemental Guidance
Grouping:https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/125

sam: could use tags
... there not be clean separations. So could have key words.
... it could be dynamic.

andy: some technical hurdles to make tagging work.

sam: keywords could be headings.

andy: have the structure in place
Alternative themes (high contrast, dark mode)
https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/139

sam: a tech question on it.
... will WHC override inline style.

jon: it depends.
... depends on technology being used.
... wcag says specify foreground and background colors.

<shawn> [ Shawn apologizes for only being in IRC. If I understand
previous topic correctly, I would like to suggest that we get basic
supplemental guidance out soon, and not let ideals of tagging and more
complex stuff slow us down now. (If I misunderstood topic, please
excuse my intrusion)]

jon: we have a technique for icon fonts.
... take a look at the WCAG techniques.

<jon_avila> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/

jon: search github for HCM

andy: apple has system wide dark mode that is helpful.
... requires author to have CSS properties for that media query
... a lot of ways where it can do wrong.
... WCAG doesn’t work well for dark colors
... author needs to take charge of it.
... could use variables.
... kind of a new thing.
... some browser extensions are available.
... a study found dark mode is healthier for the eyes

jon: dark mode and h c more are different things,
... related but different. We will need to address both.
... put ideas into the GH discussion.

sam: low contrast should be in there too.
... have a low vision acuity mode done by the author.
... have a digital passport.
... nice to have but seems a pipe dream.

andy: user profiles is a key thing.

<jon_avila> GPII https://gpii.net/

andy: Gregg V is working on GPII

jon: ... work on things to be aware of today.
... maybe give some examples of what is possible today.

<shawn> +1 to giving guidance to designers and developers on what they
can do now (while us keeping involved on how to make things better in
the future)

jon: no good way to detect WHC mode.
... document things.
... give some actionable guidance.

article by Dr Legge. He will join us on Dec 16.

sam: maybe use simulations in sup guidance.
... depends on how where they want to go with their algorithm.

jon: we want to understand the study. we could point to it.
... it could apply in wcag 3. the agwg would need to coordinate that.
Not in the lvtf scope.

sam: could apply to ambiguity of icons

andy: it is way to simulate things.
... can’t do auto testing with it.

jon: not sure about the icons.
... a lot of issues with icons.
... we could give guidance without the tool.
... could give icon advice.

andy: example of icons on WAI site that can’t be distinguished.

jon: try to limit your own descriptions on the 16th.

sam: human observer is best for disambiguation

andy: circle vs octagon is a coga issue.
... no auto method is going to get to it.

sam: task- distinguish shapes and strokes.
... can I tell which is which.
... can I tell what it means.

andy: sun computers did work on this.
... 2 items: understandable discernible

sam: disambiguation

andy: yes. unique.

jon: anyone else who should attend on the 16?
... AC, Gregg V

sam: scope for the conversation limited to icons uniquely identifiable
... don’t want to go down other rabbit holes.

jon: I read in the study about resolution.
... people with lv may be sitting closer
... there are complicating factors that it may not currently address.

<AndySomers> APCA independent review:
https://medium.com/@think_ui/why-color-contrast-is-not-as-black-and-white-as-it-seems-94197a72b005


-- 
Laura L. Carlson

Received on Thursday, 2 December 2021 17:47:47 UTC