Re: definition of "fixed spatial layout

PS. To the last note. It irks me to have to choose an IDE that is
inaccessible to one population just because it works for me, but I had to
decide between getting work done and being completely consistent with WCAG
2.0. It kind of hurt to make that choice.

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com> wrote:

> There are very few spatial layouts that are necessary. Images with labeled
> points are one (in or out of the canvas). Data tables are necessary without
> a conversion to a relational equivalent.
>
> Application layout is definitely not necessary for many applications. Take
> Microsoft Word for example. The ribbon across the top can be useful, but
> the space it takes is very intrusive. I prefer a linear presentation over
> time. So I close ribbons until needed.
>
> There is no reason why the boxes on a ribbon cannot expand to full screen
> with 400% mag. Many app developers just don't provide this capability.
> Namely, the ability to address panes and windows. I use an IDE that is
> inaccessible to blind users because it lets me view my panes in full screen
> mode.
>
> The difference in informational content linearization and application
> linearization is the dimension of linearization. Informational content is
> linearized by space as in responsive design and supported by SC 1.3.2.
> Application linearization is a temporal operation. It gives the ability to
> view each main content area, pane, panel and panel box as a full screen
> single purpose page, and the ability to navigate between them as you do a
> job over time.
>
> Wayne
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Stephen,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that’s a good approach, I have a feeling we did say 2-dimensional
>> before and people complained, but maybe that was to do with scrolling
>> rather than layout.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’ll spell out “two” and see if that helps ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I’ve updated the SC text and put the comment here for posterity:
>>
>> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/77#issuecomment-303775484
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim – I remember the discussion (assuming it was the one on the LV call
>> about 3 or 4 weeks ago), where I was saying that no-one does these
>> interfaces at the moment because (in a browser) it is very difficult. They
>> tend to do apps on smaller screens.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, I tried to phrase it as “interfaces where it is necessary to
>> keep toolbars in view whilst manipulating content”, so if it is NOT
>> necessary, then it should not be exempt. It’s a bit circular, but hopefully
>> that provides a little wiggle room *and* passes muster as normative text.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> -Alastair
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *"Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 16:21
>> *To: *Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>, LVTF -
>> low-vision-a11y <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *RE: definition of "fixed spatial layout
>> *Resent-From: *LVTF - low-vision-a11y <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>> *Resent-Date: *Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 16:22
>>
>>
>>
>> I wouldn’t have an issue with any of the proposals below, but I wonder if
>> we’re making this more complicated than it needs to be by going to the
>> glossary and adding extra terms like fixed and spatial. Maybe just re-word
>> the SC as:
>>
>>
>>
>> Content can be resized to 400% without loss of content or functionality,
>> and without requiring scrolling in the direction of text except for parts
>> of the content which require a 2-dimensional layout for usage or meaning.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stating it this way makes it more obvious (to me at least) what we want
>> to exclude.  We could add a non-normative note directly under the SC to add
>> some examples of what is excluded, or just include in Understanding.
>>
>>
>>
>> PS – I changed “use” to its synonym “usage” mainly for personal
>> preference because I think it sounds better, so feel free to revert back.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:09 AM
>> *To:* public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>> *Subject:* RE: definition of "fixed spatial layout
>>
>>
>>
>> > ​in conversations with Wayne, he would prefer toolbars be minimized
>> till needed. Seems many applications have this feature. tools popup when
>> you ask for them. Adding "editing layouts"
>>
>>
>>
>> I use 800x600 on my desktop and I always minimize the office ribbon with
>> control+f1 until I need it otherwise I lose too much space to it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jim Allan [mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:02 AM
>> *To:* Alastair Campbell
>> *Cc:* public-low-vision-a11y-tf
>> *Subject:* Re: definition of "fixed spatial layout
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 3:26 AM, Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you, this has been on my to-do list too long!
>>
>>
>>
>> I do wonder if there is a better word than “fixed”, but got stuck with
>> that. Perhaps “where a specific spatial layout is necessary…”?
>>
>>
>>
>> ​"fixed" was a result of comments. tho I like your phrase better. ​
>>
>>
>>
>> I’d also like to squeeze in editing layouts where you have to see the
>> toolbars and the content at the same time. It goes along with the
>> data-table example fairly well.
>>
>> ​in conversations with Wayne, he would prefer toolbars be minimized till
>> needed. Seems many applications have this feature. tools popup when you ask
>> for them. Adding "editing layouts"​
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I’d probably drop the canvas element as too technology-specific, the
>> content of the canvas would be images, video etc, so it is essentially
>> covered by those I think.
>>
>>
>>
>> So the examples could be:
>>
>> “
>>
>> ​​
>>
>> Examples include images, maps, diagrams, video, games, data tables, and
>> interfaces where it is necessary to keep toolbars in view whilst
>> manipulating content.”
>>
>>
>>
>> ​New definition
>>
>> ​
>>
>> fixed spatial layout - elements where the 2 dimensional arrangement of
>> content is necessary for use and/or perceiving relationships.
>>
>> ​
>>
>> Examples include
>>
>> ​:​
>>
>>  images, maps, diagrams, video, games, data tables, and interfaces where
>> it is necessary to keep toolbars in view whilst manipulating content.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does that make sense? We could extend the exampels to bullet points if it
>> gets weightier.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> -Alastair
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 22:57
>> *To: *LVTF - low-vision-a11y <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *definition of "fixed spatial layout
>> *Resent-From: *LVTF - low-vision-a11y <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 22:57
>>
>>
>>
>> issue 77 Resize Content
>>
>> Content can be resized to 400% without loss of content or functionality,
>> and without requiring scrolling in the direction of text except for parts
>> of the content where fixed spatial layout is necessary to use or meaning.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thinking and scribbling...
>>
>>
>>
>> ​​
>>
>> fixed spatial layout - elements where the 2 dimensional arrangement of
>> content is necessary for use and/or perceiving relationships. Examples
>> include: images, maps, diagrams, video, data tables, games, <canvas>
>>
>>
>>
>> Seems too simple. Does it need to be more complicated? The examples -
>> images, maps, diagrams, video, games... and perhaps <canvas>, are generally
>> objects that have a fixed arrangement and can't be reflowed. They can be
>> resized but not rearranged. Tables, it seems, are a special case.  Some
>> (simple ones?) can be rearranged and still retain meaning. The reflow of
>> more complex tables would present difficulties for users trying to discern
>> relationships between cells.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator
>>
>> Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
>> 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
>> voice 512.206.9315 <(512)%20206-9315>    fax: 512.206.9264
>> <(512)%20206-9264>  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
>>
>> "We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator
>>
>> Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
>> 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
>> voice 512.206.9315 <(512)%20206-9315>    fax: 512.206.9264
>> <(512)%20206-9264>  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
>>
>> "We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
>>
>
>