Re: definition of "fixed spatial layout

Hi Stephen,

I think that’s a good approach, I have a feeling we did say 2-dimensional before and people complained, but maybe that was to do with scrolling rather than layout.

I’ll spell out “two” and see if that helps ;-)

Anyway, I’ve updated the SC text and put the comment here for posterity:
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/77#issuecomment-303775484


Jim – I remember the discussion (assuming it was the one on the LV call about 3 or 4 weeks ago), where I was saying that no-one does these interfaces at the moment because (in a browser) it is very difficult. They tend to do apps on smaller screens.

However, I tried to phrase it as “interfaces where it is necessary to keep toolbars in view whilst manipulating content”, so if it is NOT necessary, then it should not be exempt. It’s a bit circular, but hopefully that provides a little wiggle room and passes muster as normative text.

Cheers,

-Alastair


From: "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
Date: Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 16:21
To: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>, LVTF - low-vision-a11y <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Subject: RE: definition of "fixed spatial layout
Resent-From: LVTF - low-vision-a11y <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, 24 May 2017 at 16:22

I wouldn’t have an issue with any of the proposals below, but I wonder if we’re making this more complicated than it needs to be by going to the glossary and adding extra terms like fixed and spatial. Maybe just re-word the SC as:

Content can be resized to 400% without loss of content or functionality, and without requiring scrolling in the direction of text except for parts of the content which require a 2-dimensional layout for usage or meaning.

Stating it this way makes it more obvious (to me at least) what we want to exclude.  We could add a non-normative note directly under the SC to add some examples of what is excluded, or just include in Understanding.

PS – I changed “use” to its synonym “usage” mainly for personal preference because I think it sounds better, so feel free to revert back.

Steve

From: Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:09 AM
To: public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Subject: RE: definition of "fixed spatial layout

> ​in conversations with Wayne, he would prefer toolbars be minimized till needed. Seems many applications have this feature. tools popup when you ask for them. Adding "editing layouts"

I use 800x600 on my desktop and I always minimize the office ribbon with control+f1 until I need it otherwise I lose too much space to it.

Jonathan

From: Jim Allan [mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:02 AM
To: Alastair Campbell
Cc: public-low-vision-a11y-tf
Subject: Re: definition of "fixed spatial layout


On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 3:26 AM, Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>> wrote:
Hi Jim,

Thank you, this has been on my to-do list too long!

I do wonder if there is a better word than “fixed”, but got stuck with that. Perhaps “where a specific spatial layout is necessary…”?

​"fixed" was a result of comments. tho I like your phrase better. ​

I’d also like to squeeze in editing layouts where you have to see the toolbars and the content at the same time. It goes along with the data-table example fairly well.
​in conversations with Wayne, he would prefer toolbars be minimized till needed. Seems many applications have this feature. tools popup when you ask for them. Adding "editing layouts"​


I’d probably drop the canvas element as too technology-specific, the content of the canvas would be images, video etc, so it is essentially covered by those I think.

So the examples could be:
“
​​
Examples include images, maps, diagrams, video, games, data tables, and interfaces where it is necessary to keep toolbars in view whilst manipulating content.”

​New definition
​
fixed spatial layout - elements where the 2 dimensional arrangement of content is necessary for use and/or perceiving relationships.
​
Examples include
​:​
 images, maps, diagrams, video, games, data tables, and interfaces where it is necessary to keep toolbars in view whilst manipulating content.

Does that make sense? We could extend the exampels to bullet points if it gets weightier.

Cheers,

-Alastair


From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu<mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 22:57
To: LVTF - low-vision-a11y <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>>
Subject: definition of "fixed spatial layout
Resent-From: LVTF - low-vision-a11y <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Tuesday, 23 May 2017 at 22:57

issue 77 Resize Content
Content can be resized to 400% without loss of content or functionality, and without requiring scrolling in the direction of text except for parts of the content where fixed spatial layout is necessary to use or meaning.

Thinking and scribbling...

​​
fixed spatial layout - elements where the 2 dimensional arrangement of content is necessary for use and/or perceiving relationships. Examples include: images, maps, diagrams, video, data tables, games, <canvas>

Seems too simple. Does it need to be more complicated? The examples - images, maps, diagrams, video, games... and perhaps <canvas>, are generally objects that have a fixed arrangement and can't be reflowed. They can be resized but not rearranged. Tables, it seems, are a special case.  Some (simple ones?) can be rearranged and still retain meaning. The reflow of more complex tables would present difficulties for users trying to discern relationships between cells.

--
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315<tel:(512)%20206-9315>    fax: 512.206.9264<tel:(512)%20206-9264>  http://www.tsbvi.edu/

"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964



--
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/

"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964