Minutes: Low Vision Task Force 12 Jan 2017

https://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html

 DRAFT - Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 12 Jan 2017

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-irc>
Attendees
Present Jim, Wayne, Shawn, Laura, Scott, DavidMacDonald Regrets Marla,
glenda Chair Jim Scribe allanj
Contents

   - Topics <https://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html#agenda>
      1. hyphenation
      <https://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html#item01>
      2. General discussion
      <https://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html#item02>
   - Summary of Action Items
   <https://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
   - Summary of Resolutions
   <https://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>

------------------------------

hyphenation

http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/hyphenation-test.htm

there is a soft hyphen generator -
http://yellowgreen.de/soft-hyphenation-generator

and a javascript generator - https://github.com/mnater/Hyphenator
General discussion

<scribe> scribe: allanj

wayne: concerned about SC.
... other folks don't see user CSS as a mechanism for achieving.
... LA times uses 25 character columns.

<laura>
http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/user_styles/important_spacing.html

Laura: for Spacing SC. want examples of author styles breaking user styles.

<laura> Patrick wants to see hard examples of where authors are breaking
user styles…

<laura> and where it's not simply the user styles that need to be written
more specifically with their selectors - e.g. not just setting style rules
purely on body or html.

from Jonathan -
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jan/0008.html

"that is the point I was attempting to make-- from what I know stylish adds
in the styles as document level styles and they are not seen as "user level
styles". Many browsers don't let you add user level styles and thus we are
stuck with tools that only allow us to enter document level styles."

<laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/user_styles/spacing.css

jim: with css specificity, they user must look at the code and fined the
classes and id associated with all elements on the page, then build the
'stylish' rule to make a page readable. Very onerous for users

laura: stylish is not a user stylesheet.

<laura> From the CSS Cascading and Inheritance Level 3 specification:
https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-css-cascade-3-20131003/#important0

<ScottM> The basic problem is that the majority of users are not able to
create their own style sheets and the closest they will get is high
contrast mode in Windows

wayne: author's should not be using !important in CSS

<shawn> [ /me looking for examples in the wild...
https://wellnessmama.com/2261/water-kefir-soda/ -- my Stylish changes line
spacing in most of the text but not in the recipe box ...]

<shawn> ^^ wrong, ignore that

IE worked with user style sheet

shawn: stylish doesnot override author !important
... user stylesheets in safari and IE do override author !important

firefox extension -
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/user-style-manager/

above is a manager for stylish

wayne: authors using !important is a FAIL case
... at the element level on a page.

shawn: what is the limitation on developers of not using !important on
elements in a page
... the user can use common tools for most elements (stylish). if author
uses !important on an element then user must switch to IE or Safari
... to use user stylesheets

scott: most users will not use user stylesheets
... requires lots of technical acumen

shawn: +1
... how do we make it possible for those who have the technical skills to
use them to write styles.

wayne: majority of folks with low vision don't use screen magnification

<alastairc> I'll be referring to this example in a moment:
https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/percentages-rwd.html

<laura> Would be good if Shawn commented on the issue with her examples:
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78

shawn: Alistair - what is impact if authors not using !important?

alistair: user styles are a poor way of fixing author styles.
... been experimenting with using javascript to apply user styles.
... line length - when the user puts max-width by whatever mechanism, what
do authors need to do to not break the user demand
... the question is "what are we asking authors to do"
... back to question.... not much of a limitation. the issues is
frameworks, extra plugins, server side styles, etc.
... authors are writing very specific styles for get around the plethora of
css in use. which makes it hard for users to override styles

https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/percentages-rwd.html

links can work as bookmarklet to work on any site.

because it is javascript it can be more selective

wayne: line length is not only about word wrap

shawn: accessibility support. these work with html. what about pdf?
... if pdf user can't do reflow (if forms) and no line spacing on any pdf

is that sufficeient justification for including it in WCAG. authors must
provide this, because it only works in html

<shawn> also do-able in word processing formats

alistair: if something is only doable in html and not anywhere else, is
that reason to reject from WCAG?

shawn: mobile is an exception. I have other ways of looking at html other
than mobile device. if it is in PDF I can't read it.

alistair: the old hands don't reject "mechanism". hard to get consensus. we
are not asking for widgets on pages.
... font family, line length and spacing..... are for users overriding
settings. need to rephrase for things the author can do, not what user
overrides.
... what things break when user tries to override and they can't?

shawn: then user can't read the content. especially in PDF

wayne: every WCAG 2.0 had techniques for things that users could do.

shawn: what can we do?
... having good well thought out examples, and communicating what
"mechanism" means

<shawn> (e.g., "mechanism" doesn't mean you need a widget)

scott: this is a hard thing. huge variations in vision. users need
flexibility. must keep after it. get what we can and try for more later.
... high contrast hasn't changed in years.

<David-MacDonald> I'm just joining in

<laura> Welcome, David.

david is facilitator for Line Length and Reflow.

david: what is thought on reflow language.

alistairs reflow j https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/percentages-rwd.html

<David-MacDonald> For all visual presentation of text, a mechanism is
available to adjust the line length to a maximum of 25 characters (13 if
CJK) without increasing the font size in the user agent, and without
requiring two-dimensional scrolling, except where: * The user-agent
provides no means of re-flowing content. * The spatial layout of the text
is essential to its use. * A line has a word which is longer than 25 (13 if
CJK) characters.

david: above stands by itself.

shawn: explain UA exception.

david: that is the mobile exception.

shawn: issue: content in html, with limitation in mobile...so use desktop.
Fine. if content in PDF with a form...can't access it at all.
... it is not fine to have an exception for PDF. author must provide in an
alternate format.

david: pdf xml forms is going away next year.

shawn: tons of legacy content. need a remediation path?

david: what about reflow in pdf.

shawn: doesn't work with forms, signatures, etc. has specific cases

david: what about export to html

shawn: functionally not workable

scott: reflow is based on old document structure. security will block
export.

shawn: has examples of files that don't export

<alastairc> question: why the mobile exception?

shawn: goal is user can get to information. if info is only available in
PDF - need an alternate format or a different tool

david: if it conforms to wcag, I can get to information. venn diagram -
technically feasible from accessibility business case.
... if authors do this ... then problem solved. this is what SCs do.

shawn: today... authors need to provide info in html.

<laura> David’s Venn diagram is on his spreadsheet:

<laura>
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XShLFX8fxHYYLn8A6avDwu37w9JfnZCGWvAKBpK9Xo4/edit#gid=684261396

<Wayne> q

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask related point about accessibility supported

Alistair: can make pdf that reflow.
... why exception for mobile? line length and reflow allow users to
override. we want to keep authors from preventing user override

<alastairc> https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/percentages-rwd.html

david: reflow. if I make window narrower the text will rewrap. but
eventually will stop. and cant make it change.

<shawn> shawn clarifies -- can make *some* pdf relow, not all "Text that
does not reflow includes forms, comments, digital signature fields, and
page artifacts, such as page numbers, headers, and footers. Pages that
contain both readable text and form or digital signature fields do not
reflow.". Cannot change line spacing
http://tader.info/support.html#PDFviewers

the bookmarklets work fine on CNN

alistair: if you can linearize then linelengh is unnecessary.
... only works if page linearizes well
... the mechanism is not a widget. its a bookmarklet or extension. The
author just has to write in a way that does not break linearization

some pages works well. other pages things overlap badly.

we have a good user requirement. how to get authors to write appropriately.

alistair: chrome doesn't allow less than 400 pixel window.
... can you zoom in to get certain line lengths is irrelevant.

david: so drop 57 and reword 58

<David-MacDonald> tinyurl.com/jmo9st4

<David-MacDonald> LVTF Issue #58: Content can be viewed as a single column,
except where: 1) The content is in data tables which have more than one
column 2) Content contains interactive controls that cannot be reflowed 3)
Reflow would cause distortion or loss of information

<alastairc> sorry, wife ghas to leave right now!

<David-MacDonald> [OR The spatial layout is essential to the function and
understanding of the content.]

wayne: reflow causes distortion? what does that mean?

david: datatables, and <pre> and <code>

<David-MacDonald> [OR The spatial layout is essential to the function and
understanding of the content.]

<shawn> Bottom Line -- Some things are an automatic pass in basic HTML. The
issue is that users can't do it in other technologies (e.g., PDF). Thus, we
need the requirement in WCAG, so that the user need is met -- (which means
that while it is not accessibility-supported, then alternative version is
needed for info in those technologies (PDF))

wayne: need to write <pre> and <code> better
... +1 fo spatial layout is essential
... main problem with reflow ... positioning ... you can get elements in a
column that looks like linearization in 1.3.2 ... the only way to get
column narrow enough
... is to linearize all block content (gmail breaks when linearizing)

david: 1.3.2 is all about MEANING, not linearization.

wayne: we want to be able to linearize page in the same order they appear
is accessibility API

david: current language is OK?

wayne: yes.
... but it is difficult to linearize page. will take time to tease out what
authors need to do to fix linearability
... new technologies are preventing setting position to static, and turning
off grid.
... need to tease out what authors are doing that break linearization.

david: is it doable, technically possible, and business case feasible

wayne: some pages dye when linearized

david: I think we can put this out. get feedback. search for solutions in
mean time.
... 58 (reflow) out, retire 57 (line length).
... use current language. keep spatial layout for later

wayne: would like to change reflow.... people get confused with word wrap.
perhaps linearize...

david: linearize goes back to WCAG1 and has issues.

wayne: need better wording for title.

<shawn> [ /me too -- that's why I *really* appreciated Laura's succinct
summary of the issues earlier in the call !!!]

shawn: me to

need summary of points that LVTF folks need from emails and calls

david: summary - Propose 57 is retired. present 58 with bullet 3 removed.

wayne: have alistairs code to check for failures.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about spacing and to cooment about bottom
line

<shawn> Bottom Line -- Some things are an automatic pass in basic HTML. The
issue is that users can't do it in other technologies (e.g., PDF). Thus, we
need the requirement in WCAG, so that the user need is met -- (which means
that while it is not accessibility-supported, then alternative version is
needed for info in those technologies (PDF))

david: moving the needle on responsive design.

shawn: does that address issue with spacing.

laura: if UA prevents spacing adjustment, content is exempt.

shawn: ok for mobile, not for PDF

<laura> For the visual presentation of blocks of text:

<laura> * character spacing can be adjusted by the user

<laura> * word spacing can be adjusted by the user

<laura> * line spacing can be adjusted by the user

<laura> * paragraph spacing can be adjusted by the user

wayne: really need spacing in PFD.

<laura> with following the exceptions:

<laura> * If the user agent prohibits spacing adjustments the content is
exempt.

wcag are pushing back saying is a UA issue.

alistairs js works on mobile.

scribe: but not on PDF

shawn: why exception?

wayne: we are working on an AUTHOR level.

shawn: require authors to provide content in a way that is accessibly
supported.
... thats what wcag2 said about flash. right?

david: all technologies must meets all of wcag...unless there is an
exception.
... if the technology doesn't apply then its an automatic pass

wayne: mechanism is NOT a widget.

<shawn> [ Shawn is not cool with that exception ]

<shawn> Content is not accessible if users cannot change line spacing

wayne: they just have to be able to do something. If author uses !important
then it breaks user control

david: need to be able to swap out stylesheets.

SC vs what is available. or what can be done today.

we want authors to not prevent users from changing their content to meet
their needs

<shawn> [ /me debates saying that the only way to get user needs met right
now is WCAG ]

wayne: because not many people can use user stylesheets, then UAs removed
styleability of form controls and form controls are broken for lv folks

<alastairc> still going?

yes.!

<Wayne> still going

wayne: some places can't write javascript to modify form controls

david: reading mode in Edge. can modify spacing etc

shawn: zoomtext or AT is not solution for MOST users with low vision (ie
moderate low vision)

david: have to prove SC is implementable.

shawn: what about alistairs language to not get in the way of CSS.
... can we propose spacing without the exception. it can be met
automatically by html unless you use !important at page level element.
... it works on mobile with alistair's bookmarklet

alistair: bookmarklet will work on any website.

wayne: at least getting it in WCAG and recognized is important.

laura: need examples in the wild to prove sc

perhaps spacing as AAA.

wayne: can't control font family in select/option

<shawn> THANKS Alastair!

alistair: if we can prove spacing works in html
... opera on android, pinch zoom reflows text. sets a max width to text
block

<laura> Bye. Thanks all.

trackbot, end meeting

<shawn> laura - please spacing *not* at Level AAA - it's a solid AA for
many people
Summary of Action Items Summary of Resolutions [End of minutes]

-- 
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964