- From: Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 17:37:47 -0500
- To: logo <public-logo-design@w3.org>
On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, +1.808.783.aaaa, +1.778.316.aabb,
plinss, fantasai, [Apple], +1.415.652.aacc
On IRC I see dsinger, plinss, julee, Yohei, Zakim, shepazu
ScribeNick: fantasai
round of intros
Doug Schepers, W3C
dsinger, Apple AC rep
fantasai, Invited Expert
Yohei, designer at Adobe
plinss, HP, CSSWG co-chair, involved in CSS since 1998
plinss: also co-chair of TAG, currently
Julee, Web Platform team at Adobe
Michael Nieling, creative director at OcuPop
m: worked for W3C as well as other companies
done lots of high-profile identity work on the Web, including
HTML5 logo
done a lot with JS libraries
worked with shepazu in the past on other projects
Talked about value in creating identity for CSS
Wanted to pull conversation together to get some stakeholders on
the line
talk about what we could do here and what would be the best
possible result
Doug has been articulating the "what" of what we need
end of day, looking for a common identity
when ppl talk about CSS, evolution of spec, capabilities therein,
there isn't really a single mark to hang the hat on
no visual cue
comment on intent of initiative, ideal output of our efforts
shepazu: single identity for CSS, for people to use when talking about
CSS, self-promotion of people identifying with CSS
m: things like WebPlatform.org need a visual icon that *means* CSS
Problematic that CSS got absorbed into HTML5 logo rollout
shepazu: Confusingly, somehow a blue HTML5 shield with a 3 has become
the CSS logo of choice lately, and that's got to change
shepazu: You see it everywhere, whenever you go to a conference, ppl
with slides, on company assets when talking about support for CSS
shepazu: They use thatlogo
shepazu: Any number of places where this is used
shepazu: Would be helpful to have a symbol to rally the community
around, like they were able to rally around HTML5
shepazu: CSS worthy of its own logo
m: Yep, wanted to make sure we put that all out there
With HTMl5 logo, was brought into world... quickly
With this I think intent is to be more inclusive
Ultimately, the way we manage identity projects
we have 2 rules
that we've been using for 15 years
one is, we don't work with committees
other is, we don't work with architects
So, breaking the rules here.
logo design is something that we believe is about presenting
solutions, not options
depends on expert, the design agency
assessing requirements
what do we need to say, who do we need to say it to
so committee makes that a challenging prospect, many opinions to
weigh in
would like to see how ppl would like this to go
so we can figure out feasibility of this process
would like to hear first from design background ppl
How best do you think this process might go?
Yohei: Not good to get too many opinions from other people who don't
ahve right ideas to contribute
We had a lot of disasters getting to many opinions
trying to incorporate too many people's opinions
shepazu: I think we all agree that this is going to be a disaster from
the outset
Let's see what we can do
Let's give our opinions of what CSS aspirationally is and represents
What should the logo say about the technology?
HTMl5 logo: solid, strong, regulated
It was solid, foundational
m: powerful, promising, legitimate
Wanted to convey permanence, validity, something you can use now
So what are the things we should be saying about CSS?
What should this logo be exuding
shepazu: One reason excited to work with M is they did the HTML5 logo
Somehow their should be some harmony btween logos
Apart from that
I personally see CSS being more artistic, maybe less angular and
more swoopy
It's growin
modular aspect of CSS
bunch of pieces going together to make something, combinatorial
Technology that keeps changing, keeps improving
So my initial impressions are hippie
fantasai: Not sure I would say the same thing
shepazu: Maybe not hippie, but more organic than HTMl5 logo
organic, flexible, growing
versatile
shepazu: but still harmonious with HTMl5
fantasai: I think that's a lot of great feedback, doug
We did do a website design project for the CSSWG awhile back,
that never got realized
I definitiely remember the CSSWG working with the designer, Jason
Cranford Teague, on this project
That seemed to work out very well
He took the requirements, and came back with what we were looking for
shepazu: So I think M's preferred way of working is to get requirements
and come back with solution
M: Want to gather requirements, and then get impressions of what it
needs to say, try to exude
We have a pretty good idea at this point as well
then come back to decision-makers, and make a presentation of
"here is the system we're proposing"
Generally takes .5-1hr
Present various experiments we went through
Present solution we think is best
then go from there, refinement
We work with CSS every day, so something every close to us as well
but we're not involved at the spec level
would like to get perspective of developers
Do we, for example, need a number like 3 or 4
relationship to HTMl5 also important. Shouldn't look like
stepchild of HTml5 logo, but should be harmonized
fantasai: [explains modularization of CSS]
shepazu: There might be some value to notion of logo, but some indicator
of level
not saying we should come up with logo for Flexbox
but might want to combine CSS with a flexbox logo they've come up
with
given the breadth of areas covered vy CSS, we probably need something a
whole load more abstract and timeless than the HTML5 one
fantasai: I'm not convinced that this should go into the requirements
m: logos should be effective at tiny sizes, in monochrome, put beside
text like "Flexbox", etc.
shepazu: Anyone else with comments?
dsinger: I think we should keep it very simple. Relationship to HTML5
not terribly important. But should be simple, timeless, and used with
wide range of tech that's in CSS.
shepazu: A lot of power and variety in CSS
fantasai: I think one of the most valuable things we did in the design
process was coming up with a list of adjectives to describe the result
I would like to get more feedback than just the people on this call
e.g. ask members of CSSWG, www-style, who are interested to
submit their thoughts
and then compile that into set of reqs
shepazu: Anyone else have impressions?
When we launched HTMl5 logo, we had a page dedicated to that logo
Probably want something similar for CSS
also remix ability to create logo in colors you want
m: We would execute that as part of the process
shepazu: Another procedural thing, with HTML5 we had partners
trumpeting this from marketing and promotional aspect
when we launched this
didn't have lots of time to put that together
if you're interested in helping, to send out signal,
we might also want to think, is there some milestone that CSS or
W3C is reaching such that we can say, hey, we're going to announce this
along with announcement of whatever
so, microsite and promotion plan
and release timeline
How long would this normally take?
m: not terribly long. Start to finish, depends on reviews/revisions, if
we started out beginning of year, could be ready to launch Q1
6-12 weeks total?
could be faster if necessary, if decisions can be made quickly enough
shepazu: considering that, how about beginning of January?
fantasai: Thinking to gather feedback through end of december, give 1-2
weeks beginning of January for CSSWG to put together feedback
shepazu: Do we want to make this process more public / broader
announcement, or keep it public but down-low
would prefer the latter
fantasai: would like to pull ideas from CSSWG and probably www-style, at
least for initial requirements stage
but not make it a wide marketed effort
I think this will be widely-used. Don't think we'll get explosion
of vitriol from HTMl5 logo
julee: I'm wondering, in order to avoid some of the backlash, would it
be an idea to have 2-3 finalist images, that ppl could vote on?
shepazu: voting is really problematic
m: I would say no
...
WG decides
I would really avoid that
q+
sees dsinger on the speaker queue
m: Our job as designers is to give a solution, not to give options
We go through options, through iterations
but you come to a design team to provide expert direction
not to give ppl without expertise to make decision
shepazu: I naively ran an SVG logo contest X yrs ago, and that burned me
Sentiment julee gave was making people feel part of process
maybe we could have video of the presentation, process
m: Could absolutely do something like that
People love those
Yeah, could be really cool
I'm expecting that the solution we come up with will be
modular/adaptable like CSS is
...distinctive is good (and hard)
but open with what we can come up with is simple, elegant, all
the things described... but also customized by ppl using it
with video, with asking for opinions on adjectives at outset
here, can engage ppl and make them feel part of it
dsinger: I think can also get reqs by a given deadline
q-
sees no one on the speaker queue
dsinger: If ppl don't like designer's solution, they just won't use it :0
shepazu: Spirit that we offered HTMl5 logo
we're not forcing you to use the logo, but we're proposing the logo
ppl ignored that part
shepazu: ppl used it, so we made it official
fantasai: So, I think next steps would be to post an announcement asking
for feedback
shepazu: "we are thinking of making a css logo, if we did that, what
impressions would it give"
m: Can I be privy to message before it goes out?
shepazu: We'll compose message on logo list
fantasai: I would like examples of a summary of input you're looking for
post to list?
m: Okay
fantasai^: And then in early January, we'll compile the feedback, pass
it through CSSWG as a filter, and hand it off to designers
shepazu: Thanks everyone for participating
m: Excited to work on this
shepazu: Thanks especially to you, to consider this
thx, exciting, thx to the scribe
shepazu: Meeting closed.
Received on Friday, 6 December 2013 22:37:55 UTC