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Re: Squaring the HTTP-range-14 circle [was Re: Schema.org in RDF ...]

From: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 22:52:18 -0700
Cc: Richard Cyganiak <richard@cyganiak.de>, Alan Ruttenberg <alanruttenberg@gmail.com>, Linked Data community <public-lod@w3.org>, Michael Hausenblas <michael.hausenblas@deri.org>
Message-Id: <762BC606-C7A5-438C-A9C3-A8146EDA4021@ihmc.us>
To: Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com>
OK, I am now completely and utterly lost. I have no idea what you are saying or how any of it is relevant to the http-range-14 issue. Want to try running it past me again? Bear in mind that I do not accept your claim that a description of something is in any useful sense isomorphic to the thing it describes. As in, some RDF describing, say, the Eiffel tower is not in any way isomorphic to the actual tower. (I also do not understand why you think this claim matters, by the way.) 

Perhaps we are understanding the meaning of http-range-14 differently. My understanding of it is as follows: if an HTTP GET applied to a bare URI http:x returns a 200 response, then http:x is understood to refer to (to be a name for, to denote) the resource that emitted the response. Hence, it follows that if a URI is intended to refer to something else, it has to emit a different response, and a 303 redirect is appropriate. It also follows that in the 200 case, the thing denoted has to be the kind of thing that can possibly emit an HTTP response, thereby excluding a whole lot of things, such as dogs, from being the referent in such cases.

Pat


On Jun 12, 2011, at 6:46 PM, Danny Ayers wrote:

> On 13 June 2011 02:28, Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us> wrote:
> 
>> Next point: there can indeed be correspondences between the syntactic structure of a description and the aspects of reality it describes.
> 
> That is what I was calling isomorphism (which I still don't think was
> inaccurate). But ok, say there are correspondences instead. I would
> suggest that those correspondences are enough to allow the description
> to take the place of a representation under HTTP definitions.
> 
>> But I don't think all this is really germane to the http-range-14 issue. The point there is, does the URI refer to something like a representation (information resource, website, document, RDF graph, whatever) or something which definitely canNOT be sent over a wire?
> 
> I'm saying conceptually it doesn't matter if you can put it over the
> wire or not.
> 
>>> But replace "a novel written by a dog" for "dog" in the above. Why
>>> should the concept of a document be fundamentally any different from
>>> the concept of a dog, hence representations of a document and
>>> representations of a dog?
>> 
>> I dont follow your point here. If you mean, a document is just as real as a dog, I agree. So?  But if you mean, there is no basic difference between a document and a dog, I disagree. And so does my cat.
> 
> Difference sure, but not necessarily relevant.
> 
>>> Ok, you can squeeze something over the wire
>>> that represents  "a novel written by a dog" but you (probably) can't
>>> squeeze a "dog" over, but that's just a limitation of the protocol.
>> 
>> So improved software engineering will enable us to teleport dogs over the internet? Come on, you don't actually believe this.
> 
> It would save a lot of effort sometimes (walkies!) but all I'm
> suggesting is that if, hypothetically, you could teleport matter over
> the internet, all you'd be looking at as far as http-range-14 is
> concerned is another media type. Working back from there, and given
> correspondences as above, a descriptive document can be a valid
> representation of the identified resource even if it happens to be an
> actual thing, given that there isn't necessary any "one true"
> representation. We don't need the Information Resource distinction
> here (useful elsewhere maybe).
> 
> Cheers,
> Danny.
> 
> -- 
> http://danny.ayers.name
> 

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Received on Monday, 13 June 2011 05:52:56 UTC

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