JSON-LD Telecon Minutes for 2013-06-18

Thanks to Dave Longley for scribing! The minutes from this week's
telecon are now available.

http://json-ld.org/minutes/2013-06-18/

Full text of the discussion follows including a link to the audio
transcript:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
JSON-LD Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2013-06-18

Agenda:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2013Jun/0034.html
Topics:
   1. Linked Data introductory text
   2. Skolemization in toRDF() algorithm
   3. ISSUE-265: Media Type Registration
   4. Support for xsd:short and other integer types.
   5. fromRDF() creates nodes for things like rdf:type.
Resolutions:
   1. Adopt proposal 2g and replace the first paragraph in the
      JSON-LD Syntax Introduction with: Linked Data[LINKED_DATA] is a
      way to create a network of standards-based machine interpretable
      data across different documents and Web sites. It allows an
      application to start at one piece of Linked Data, and follow
      embedded links to other pieces of Linked Data that are hosted on
      different sites across the Web.
   2. In the security considerations section, reference RFC4627
      and add text explaining that evaluating the data as code can lead
      to unexpected side effects compromising the security of a system.
   3. Add the following text to the Security Considerations
      section: When processing JSON-LD documents, links to remote
      contexts are typically followed automatically, resulting in the
      transfer of files without the explicit request of the user for
      each one. If remote contexts are served by third parties, it may
      allow them to gather usage patterns or similar information
      leading to privacy concerns. Explain that this can be controlled
      through effective use of the API.
Chair:
   Manu Sporny
Scribe:
   Dave Longley
Present:
   Dave Longley, Markus Lanthaler, Manu Sporny, David Booth,
   Gregg Kellogg, Niklas Lindström, Clay Wells
Audio:
   http://json-ld.org/minutes/2013-06-18/audio.ogg

Dave Longley is scribing.
Markus Lanthaler:  if we have time, i'd like to discuss the blank
   nodes as datatypes issue
Markus Lanthaler:
   https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/257

Topic: Linked Data introductory text

Manu Sporny:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Jun/0054.html
Manu Sporny:  david booth just sent out a proposal to the mailing
   list that i thought was pretty good
Manu Sporny:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Jun/0219.html
David Booth:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Jun/0219.html
Manu Sporny:  would you mind going over the proposals, david?
David Booth:  proposal 1 is separate that i think we already
   agreed to ... to include TimBL doc in the references
Manu Sporny:  i'm not sure we agreed
David Booth:  we can skip over that for the moment
David Booth:  i tried to give a range of possibilities, 2a would
   quote TimBL from his doc w/typos, 2b would do the same but clean
   up typos, 2c would make that text not be a definition of Linked
   Data
David Booth: [[
David Booth: Linked Data[LINKED_DATA] is a technique for creating
   a network of
David Booth: inter-connected machine interpretable data across
   different documents
David Booth: and Web sites. It allows an application to start at
   one piece of Linked
David Booth: Data, and follow embedded links to other pieces of
   Linked Data that are
David Booth: hosted on different sites across the Web.
David Booth: ]]
Gregg Kellogg:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Jun/0215.html
Gregg Kellogg:  i thought it was interesting, kingsley chimed in
   comments yesterday and actually supported the introduction
   changing to TimBL's version as being consistent with something
   the [w3c] group might want to do
Gregg Kellogg:  we actually started off deviating from that
   because of Kingsley's vehement objections, now that he seems like
   he has changed his position that's interesting
Manu Sporny:  i think that's a misread, his position is nuanced,
   i think if the group wants to make a formal declaration of what
   Linked Data is but he thinks things are further conflated, it
   would just make the RDF WG make it clear what their position is
Gregg Kellogg:  i think this issue about "what is Linked Data" is
   larger than JSON-LD and we have another linked data spec for the
   LDP with a different definition is a problem
Gregg Kellogg:  in my mind, i would go with 2b or 2c from david
Manu Sporny:  i really like proposal 2c
Manu Sporny:  i think it accomplishes was david booth wants to
   see and it doesn't overly complicate the intro
Dave Longley:  I like proposal 2c. In order to avoid statements
   of being unfair, we should link to the Linked Data "definition".
   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  I'd like to avoid the problem we had before -
   people accusing us of not being straightforward. [scribe assist
   by Manu Sporny]
David Booth:  do you think there would be big objections to 2b
Manu Sporny:  i would object to it
Manu Sporny:  The problem I have is with the last part of this
   statement - "When someone looks up a URI, provide useful
   information, using the standards (RDF*, SPARQL)" [scribe assist
   by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  i'll just quickly outline the objections: is the
   line with RDF, SPARQL, if it just said "using standards"
David Booth:  ok, let's not get into that then
Manu Sporny:  are there any objections to proposal 2c
David Booth:  to be clearer it should say something about
   standards
Manu Sporny:  as long as we're vague about which standards, we
   can do that
Niklas Lindström:  specifically, open standards? [scribe assist
   by Niklas Lindström]
David Booth: proposal 2d
David Booth: [[
David Booth: Linked Data[LINKED_DATA] is a technique for creating
   a network of
David Booth: inter-connected, standards-based machine
   interpretable data across different documents
David Booth: and Web sites. It allows an application to start at
   one piece of Linked
David Booth: Data, and follow embedded links to other pieces of
   Linked Data that are
David Booth: hosted on different sites across the Web.
David Booth: ]]
Gregg Kellogg:  when we talk about embedding links there are mime
   types involved
Clay Wells: +1
Manu Sporny:  that looks good to me
Manu Sporny:  but it would be good to make it less of a mouthful
Gregg Kellogg:  maybe move standards-based later on
Manu Sporny:  let's wordsmith later
David Booth: proposal 2e
David Booth: [[
David Booth: Linked Data[LINKED_DATA] is a technique for creating
   a network of
David Booth: machine interpretable data across different
   documents
David Booth: and Web sites. It allows an application to start at
   one piece of Linked
David Booth: Data, and follow embedded links to other pieces of
   Linked Data that are
David Booth: hosted on different sites across the Web.
David Booth: ]]
David Booth: proposal 2f
David Booth: [[
David Booth: Linked Data[LINKED_DATA] is a technique for creating
   a network of
David Booth: standards-based machine interpretable data across
   different documents
David Booth: and Web sites. It allows an application to start at
   one piece of Linked
David Booth: Data, and follow embedded links to other pieces of
   Linked Data that are
David Booth: hosted on different sites across the Web.
David Booth: ]]
Manu Sporny:  any problems with this other than switching out
   "technique" with "practice" ?
Markus Lanthaler:  What we have in the spec today: [scribe assist
   by Markus Lanthaler]
Markus Lanthaler: These properties allow data published on the
   Web to work much like Web pages do today. One can start at one
   piece of Linked Data, and follow the links to other pieces of
   data that are hosted on different sites across the Web.
Niklas Lindström: .. I'd like s/technique/practise/ (and perhaps
   "open" or "royalty-free" somewhere; unless that's implied by this
   spec being from W3C?)
Markus Lanthaler: "These properties allow data published on the
   Web to work much like Web pages do today."
Clay Wells: method
David Booth: how about s/technique for creating/way to/ ?
David Booth: proposal 2g
David Booth: [[
David Booth: Linked Data[LINKED_DATA] is a way to create a
   network of
David Booth: standards-based machine interpretable data across
   different documents
David Booth: and Web sites. It allows an application to start at
   one piece of Linked
David Booth: Data, and follow embedded links to other pieces of
   Linked Data that are
David Booth: hosted on different sites across the Web.
David Booth: ]]

PROPOSAL: Adopt proposal 2g and replace the first paragraph in
   the JSON-LD Syntax Introduction with: Linked Data[LINKED_DATA] is
   a way to create a network of standards-based machine
   interpretable data across different documents and Web sites. It
   allows an application to start at one piece of Linked Data, and
   follow embedded links to other pieces of Linked Data that are
   hosted on different sites across the Web.

Gregg Kellogg: +1
Dave Longley: +1
Manu Sporny: +1
Niklas Lindström: +1
Clay Wells: +1
David Booth: +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 presumed the rest of the RDF WG agrees

RESOLUTION: Adopt proposal 2g and replace the first paragraph in
   the JSON-LD Syntax Introduction with: Linked Data[LINKED_DATA] is
   a way to create a network of standards-based machine
   interpretable data across different documents and Web sites. It
   allows an application to start at one piece of Linked Data, and
   follow embedded links to other pieces of Linked Data that are
   hosted on different sites across the Web.


Topic: Skolemization in toRDF() algorithm

Manu Sporny:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Jun/0159.html
David Booth:  so at present, there is some misalignment between
   the JSON-LD data model and the RDF data model, and that means
   that when JSON-LD is interpreted as RDF, the results of that
   interpretation is unpredictable, some implementations may throw
   away triples that contain blank nodes in "illegal" positions
   (illegal for the RDF data model)
David Booth:  the proposal is to avoid that mismatch when
   interpreting JSON-LD as RDF, blank nodes that would be illegal
   MUST be skolemized according to RDF skolemization
David Booth:  so the question is about requiring skolemization
   when interpreting JSON-LD as RDF, the only push back i've seen is
   requiring clients to do skolemization when the client has no way
   of minting globally unique IRIs
Markus Lanthaler:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jun/0112.html
Markus Lanthaler:  yes, i brought that up and there were also
   concerns from Andy
Markus Lanthaler:  and he said that consumers should really
   figure out how to handle that use case
David Booth:  i think there was some confusion on the list about
   which skolemization topic we were talking about
Markus Lanthaler:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jun/0112.html
David Booth:  one topic was about skolemization within the RDF
   spec and the other was about JSON-LD requiring it
Markus Lanthaler:  andy replied to the minutes where we were
   discussing that
Manu Sporny:  if your graph store actually supports graph labels
   (bnodes as graph names or properties) that there could be an
   issue by forcing a processor to go through some hoops that it
   would not normally need to do
Manu Sporny:  in other words, there's no need to skolemize
Manu Sporny:  i think we should use a SHOULD, not a MUST, because
   that gives us interop but still allows application developers to
   make the decision for what is appropriate for their stack, so the
   decision can be made closer to the people that it affects
David Booth:  if it's just an internal decision that an
   application is making, then i see that as irrelevant, any
   application can do whatever it wants
David Booth:  the spec is about what JSON-LD means, the point is,
   if two independent parties process the same document, they should
   come up with the set same triples
David Booth:  except for the naming of the skolemized IRIs
Manu Sporny:  how does that address markus' point that you could
   generate data that's wrong, that there's a clash
David Booth:  if you have a clash then you haven't done proper
   skolemization
Manu Sporny:  the point is that it's impossible to know if you've
   done proper skolemization as a client
David Booth:  i don't know if that's true, there are lots of ways
   to ensure uniqueness
Markus Lanthaler:  they are very simple if you don't have a
   distributed system
Markus Lanthaler:  if we take Dave Longley's JavaScript
   implementation, which email address should he use? his own?
David Booth:  is the data going to be republished?
Markus Lanthaler:  the point is that you don't know what the user
   is going to do with the data, the user knows that, and they can
   make the best decision
Gregg Kellogg:  if i sent JSON-LD to a list in an email, then
   it's effectively republished
Gregg Kellogg:  although, at a point where it's not reasonable to
   do such a skolemization
Gregg Kellogg:  one of the issues of i have with forcing
   skolemization is that it moves a closed world to an open world
David Booth: notes that Gregg is using the term "closed world" in
   a non-standard way
Gregg Kellogg:  once you've skolemized a bnode you've gone from a
   closed model of data with some security benefits, to an open
   world and you can amend facts that were intended in a closed
   fashion
Gregg Kellogg:  intended to be stated in a closed fashion
Gregg Kellogg:  that's what the payswarm work is about so you
   can't state things about the graphs later on
Manu Sporny:  if you're dealing with a financial system and
   people can later make statements about your data
Manu Sporny:  that they shouldn't be able to do, and if they
   figured out your skolemization algorithm they could inject data
   into your graph
Gregg Kellogg:  they don't even have to do that, they just have
   to take a skolemized identifier and make statements about it
   later
Manu Sporny:  i think it would complicate implementations greatly
Manu Sporny:  since we say you have to support bnodes in graph
   and property positions you don't have to deal with skolemization
David Booth:  i would categorically object to encouraging
   features that make it impossible to make statements about things
Manu Sporny:  no one is proposing that, i don't think that's on
   the table
David Booth:  i'm talking about making it hard for someone to
   make statements about a graph
Manu Sporny:  i don't follow, how are we going to do that?
David Booth:  the comment was that if something is published with
   a bnode that you can't make statements about it elsewhere
Gregg Kellogg:  that's true today about RDF
David Booth:  i think that's very anti-web and a negative
   property
David Booth:  there is a whole discussion about draconian gov'ts
   linking to or making reference to certain statements
Manu Sporny:  i think we're having a philosophical discussion at
   this point, we should focus on a solid proposal
Manu Sporny:  there are a number of people that agree with you
   but let's stick to solid proposals
David Booth:  i don't think we have enough convergence yet, i
   wasn't aware of andy pushing back here, i need to analyze what he
   means, i need to better understand the use case that would be
   injured by requiring skolemization
David Booth:  there is another solution entirely, which would be
   for the RDF WG to allow bnodes in those positions
Manu Sporny:  peter raised just that this morning
David Booth:  my overall objective here is that i think it's
   critical if two parties deserialize RDF they get the same result,
   or as close as possible
David Booth:  with a minimum loss of information
Markus Lanthaler:  but they [aren't] the same result, [are] they?
David Booth:  the problem is two different clients taking the
   same JSON-LD document would produce data that is interpreted in
   different ways
Manu Sporny:  i think that's where we disagree, i think they are
   entirely different documents, one uses bnodes the other
   skolemization
David Booth:  i'm saying that when a JSON-LD document is
   interpreted as RDF, skolemized IDs should be generated
Manu Sporny:  that would mean that your graph store, if it
   supports bnodes in these positions, is broken
Manu Sporny:  your graph store could interpret things in the
   correct way, but it will be forced to interpret in a different
   way
Markus Lanthaler:  you are always getting different data since
   every skolemization will produce different IDs
David Booth:  the data is only different in non-important ways
Gregg Kellogg: RDF Datasets allow bnode graph names:
   https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-06-12#resolution_1
David Booth:  by unimportant i mean that the data is the same
   graph and they use all the same IRIs with the exception of the
   skolemized IRIs
Gregg Kellogg:  i think this issue with regards to bnode graph
   names is moot since RDF datasets can have graph labels that are
   bnodes
Manu Sporny: We did have a use case - JSON
Gregg Kellogg:  i cannot recall if we had a driving use case for
   allowing bnodes as predicates
Gregg Kellogg:  can someone remind me
Dave Longley:  RDF Concepts doesn't allow blank nodes in
   predicate position - perhaps we should say that. [scribe assist
   by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  I think RDF Concepts basically does that. [scribe
   assist by Manu Sporny]

Topic: ISSUE-265: Media Type Registration

Manu Sporny: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/265
Dave Longley:  I'm with you on this issue [scribe assist by Clay
   Wells]
David Booth:  i think there's still some technical
   misunderstanding of skolemization which i will try to better
   explain on the mailing list
Markus Lanthaler:  so the request is for us to be more explicit
Markus Lanthaler:  the feedback is that we should be more
   explicit about why using JavaScript's eval() method is a bad
   idea, etc.
Manu Sporny:  isn't there some security consideration we could
   link to
Clay Wells: sorry, dbooth, I'm with you on that topic. Thanks!
Markus Lanthaler:  we need to reference the JSON security section
Markus Lanthaler:  we just need to add a sentence, i think,
   explaining why eval() is a problem
Markus Lanthaler:  we don't have to change much but it would
   address their concerns

PROPOSAL: In the security considerations section, reference
   RFC4627 and add text explaining that evaluating the data as code
   can lead to unexpected side effects compromising the security of
   a system.

Markus Lanthaler:  we also need to address fetching remote
   contexts automatically that might leak user information, and we
   should say that processing a JSON-LD might result in http request
   without explicit request by the user, etc.
Niklas Lindström: +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Dave Longley: +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1
Clay Wells: +1

RESOLUTION: In the security considerations section, reference
   RFC4627 and add text explaining that evaluating the data as code
   can lead to unexpected side effects compromising the security of
   a system.

David Booth: needs to drop off for another call. Thanks all!

PROPOSAL: In the security considerations section, warn that
   remote contexts are dereferenced automatically and that usage
   patterns could be tracked based on the requests.

Niklas Lindström:  do we need more specific text, maybe there is
   something akin to this... somewhere in the depths in the XML
   specs where you can include external entities, it's much more
   like CSS, it's a good analogy i think

PROPOSAL: In the security considerations section, warn that
   remote contexts are dereferenced automatically and that usage
   patterns could be tracked based on the requests leading to
   privacy concerns.

Markus Lanthaler: When processing JSON-LD documents, links to
   remote contexts are typically followed automatically, resulting
   in the transfer of files without the explicit request of the user
   for each one. If remote contexts are served by third parties, it
   may allow them to gather usage patterns or similar information
Gregg Kellogg:  caching can help mitigate with this problem
Manu Sporny:  the problem is that the third party is tracking
   you, and if they wanted to, they could say "don't cache this"
Gregg Kellogg:  the publisher would be the one controlling the
   cache-control headers
Gregg Kellogg:  if they made stable contexts that could be cached
   for long periods of time that would help
Markus Lanthaler:  the problem is that the user is not in control
   of the publisher or the third party
Markus Lanthaler:  if you put schema.org in your context,
   schema.org would be the third party
Manu Sporny:  if you have proxy in between it can poison the
   cache, etc.
Niklas Lindström:  this all reminds me of XML catalogs, that is,
   some mechanism for the processor to control cached versions of
   contexts so that, for instance, you could pass in a reference to
   a dictionary of contexts and tell the processor it can only use
   that
Dave Longley:  yeah, we can do that with the API and the remote
   context callback loading option
Gregg Kellogg:  we could mention that you can use that to
   mitigate this problem
Gregg Kellogg:  if we don't have a way to mitigate it could
   result in further debate or denial, so we should mention this

PROPOSAL: Add the following text to the Security Considerations
   section: When processing JSON-LD documents, links to remote
   contexts are typically followed automatically, resulting in the
   transfer of files without the explicit request of the user for
   each one. If remote contexts are served by third parties, it may
   allow them to gather usage patterns or similar information
   leading to privacy concerns. Explain that this can be mitigated
   through effective use of the API.

Markus Lanthaler:  i don't think this is about implementation
   guidance
Markus Lanthaler: +1
Dave Longley: +1
Clay Wells: +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Niklas Lindström: +1 and rewording "mitigate" to "control"
Manu Sporny: +1

RESOLUTION: Add the following text to the Security Considerations
   section: When processing JSON-LD documents, links to remote
   contexts are typically followed automatically, resulting in the
   transfer of files without the explicit request of the user for
   each one. If remote contexts are served by third parties, it may
   allow them to gather usage patterns or similar information
   leading to privacy concerns. Explain that this can be controlled
   through effective use of the API.

Topic: Support for xsd:short and other integer types.

Dave Longley:  We don't want to eliminate the use case where
   people want to stay within the range of the systems limitations.
   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  We had discussed this before, we don't want to
   introduce round-tripping issues. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Markus Lanthaler:  [scribe missed] [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  At some point, the spec said "if there is a
   fractional part, turn it into a double" - that might be difficult
   to do in certain languages. You do double-based math and get the
   wrong result. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Markus Lanthaler:  Yes, you run into rounding errors. [scribe
   assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  I'm not sure, there are unfortunate cases w/
   doubles. I'm less concerned about those than the common use case
   - if something gets turned into an integer (when it was a double)
   then that's bad. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Markus Lanthaler:  a double like 5.0 will become an 5 xsd:integer
   when going though RDF round-tripping [scribe assist by Markus
   Lanthaler]
Dave Longley:  Out of all the possible choices we have, we have
   picked the least sucky approach. We're trying to be pragmatic.
   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Markus Lanthaler:  We keep what we have, and we ask Sandro about
   his opinion. If he's fine with this, then we can close the issue.
   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  I think people are going to want to control this
   via the context (convert to native types) [scribe assist by Manu
   Sporny]
Dave Longley:  And in that way, it's not tied to XSD. [scribe
   assist by Manu Sporny]
Gregg Kellogg:  We could get rid of the runtime flag, not use the
   context? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  The only issue is that everything would happen in
   compaction/expansion. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  In fromRDF/toRDF we can have an option to make it
   more specific... it would only convert the things in the context
   that are specified. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Niklas Lindström:  When you use Turtle, and use the native thing
   there - most things are turned to decimals. More fine-grained
   control is needed. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Niklas Lindström:  How would we do this? [scribe assist by Manu
   Sporny]
Dave Longley:  We'd have to add something if we wanted to be
   fine-grained. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  If we wanted something more than we have right
   now, if we find something that is typed coerced to this type,
   convert it to an integer or a double - that's the simpler
   solution w/o adding keywords to JSON-LD. [scribe assist by Manu
   Sporny]
Niklas Lindström: … {"rating": "xsd:decimal"}, values of rating
   being JSON Numbers, and always xsd:decimals in RDF
Gregg Kellogg:  That the useNativeTypes flag is false by default,
   that mitigates this to a large degree. [scribe assist by Manu
   Sporny]
Gregg Kellogg:  Developers can specify a wrapper to make this
   easier. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Markus Lanthaler:  When a pattern emerges, we can standardize it
   in 1.1 [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  Yes, let implementations sort it out and we can
   standardize it later. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Niklas Lindström:  RDFLib in Python always exposes a literal as a
   native number... but uses the added datatype tag to determine the
   exact datatype tag is very useful. You never really care about
   the lexical representation in that case. [scribe assist by Manu
   Sporny]
Niklas Lindström:  You can always use the number directly in
   processing. It would be nice to do that in the default case.
   [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]

Topic: fromRDF() creates nodes for things like rdf:type.

Niklas Lindström:  i brought up this issue a couple of weeks ago,
   the resulting JSON-LD, flattened JSON-LD from RDF conversion
   creates nodes for things that haven't been linked to, the most
   glaring examples being every rdf:type
Manu Sporny: scribe-nods.
Niklas Lindström:  except rdf:nil ... those don't turn up
Niklas Lindström:  another example would be if you gave someone a
   homepage, it shows up as a node
Niklas Lindström:  this is annoying too because choosing JSON-LD
   to transmit RDF would increase the size of the data
Niklas Lindström:  with unusable nodes
Gregg Kellogg:  markus made the point that by doing this you can
   effectively find all the links in the document
Gregg Kellogg:  my own position is that it does make it a little
   bit more ugly, but i don't know if that effectively matters in
   the long run
Markus Lanthaler:  that's the result of the node map generation
   algorithm which basically just collects all the nodes in the doc
Niklas Lindström:  you don't get all the bnodes, you only get the
   things that are IRIs
Markus Lanthaler:  you get bnodes as well, they are all labeled
   with blank node identifiers
Markus Lanthaler:  every node that appears in the graph appears
   in the flattened output
Manu Sporny:  you could just post-process the output, right?
Niklas Lindström:  you could also do the same in the other
   direction
Markus Lanthaler:  i think it's more useful to be able to find
   all the nodes in a graph
Markus Lanthaler:  if you wanted to create a graph you'd just
   loop
Niklas Lindström:  when i connect them i have to create all the
   links anyway
Markus Lanthaler:  you can just enumerate them in a simple way
Manu Sporny:  does anyone care enough about this to modify the
   flattening algorithm to remove these?
Niklas Lindström:  when i implemented this, it looked much more
   verbose, i had to do additional work to make the result look
   uglier
Manu Sporny:  is it that much of an issue to create a function to
   remove the nodes you don't want
Manu Sporny:  it seems to me like something someone could do in
   10 minutes at most
Niklas Lindström:  i don't see the point of making flattening
   looking uglier than it has to
Niklas Lindström:  it looks like an artifact of an algorithm that
   could be changed
Niklas Lindström:  it seems like preparing for something that
   someone might want to use for something else
Niklas Lindström:  i used this with connect and i didn't need
   this structure
Dave Longley:  It's already difficult for people to find stuff by
   subject. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley:  I want to make sure we're not making things more
   difficult than they already are, since we don't expose a node
   map. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny: notes we're out of time.
Discussion about rdf:nil and lists and whether they show up in
   flattening as well.
Markus Lanthaler: We need to cover this next time:
   https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/257
Dave Longley:  We also need some input on this in the issue
   tracker: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/264

-- manu

-- 
Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Meritora - Web payments commercial launch
http://blog.meritora.com/launch/

Received on Tuesday, 18 June 2013 17:47:59 UTC