Re: SPARQL subset as a PATCH format for LDP

On July 25, 2014 2:48:28 PM EDT, Alexandre Bertails <alexandre@bertails.org> wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Ashok Malhotra
><ashok.malhotra@oracle.com> wrote:
>> Alexandre:
>> The W3C held a RDF Validation Workshop last year.
>> One of the questions that immediately came up was
>> "We can use SPARQL to validate RDF".  The answer was
>> that SPARQL was to complex and too hard to learn.
>> So, we compromised and the workshop recommended
>> that a new RDF validation language should be developed
>> to cover the simple cases and SPARQL could be used when
>> things got complex.
>>
>> It seems to me that you can make a similar argument
>> for RDF Patch.
>
>I totally agree with that.
>

Thanks for bringing this up, Ashok.    I'm going to use the same situation to argue the opposite.

It's relatively easy for a group of people, especially at a face to face meeting, too come to the conclusion SPARQL is too hard to learn and we should invent something else.    But when we took it to the wider world, we got a reaction that's so strong it's hard not to characterize as violent.

You might want to read:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-shapes/2014Jul/thread.html

Probably the most recent ones right now give a decent summary and you don't have to read them all.  

I have lots of theories to explain the disparity.   Like: people who have freely chosen to join an expedition are naturally more inclined to go somewhere interesting.

I'm not saying we can't invent something new, but be sure to understand the battle to get it standardized may be harder than just implementing SPARQL everywhere.

     - Sandro

>Alexandre
>
>>
>> All the best, Ashok
>>
>>
>> On 7/25/2014 9:34 AM, Alexandre Bertails wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:04 AM, John Arwe <johnarwe@us.ibm.com>
>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Another problem is the support for rdf:list. I have just finished
>>>>> writing down the semantics for UpdateList and based on that
>>>>> experience, I know this is something I want to rely on as a user,
>>>>> because it is so easy to get it wrong, so I want native support
>for
>>>>> it. And I don't think it is possible to do something equivalent in
>>>>> SPARQL Update. That is a huge drawback as list manipulation (eg.
>in
>>>>> JSON-LD, or Turtle) is an everyday task.
>>>>
>>>> Is semantics for UpdateList  (that you wrote down) somewhere that
>WG
>>>> members
>>>> can look at it, and satisfy themselves that they agree with your
>>>> conclusion?
>>>
>>> You can find the semantics at [1]. Even if still written in Scala
>for
>>> now, this is written in a (purely functional) style, which is very
>>> close to the formalism that will be used for the operational
>semantics
>>> in the spec. Also, note that this is the most complex part of the
>>> entire semantics, all the rest being pretty simple, even Paths. And
>I
>>> spent a lot of time finding the general solution while breaking it
>in
>>> simpler sub-parts.
>>>
>>> In a nutshell, you have 3 steps: first you move to the left bound,
>>> then you gather triples to delete until the right bound, and you
>>> finally insert the new triples in the middle. It's really tricky
>>> because 1. you want to minimize the number of operations, even if
>this
>>> is only a spec 2. unlike usual linked lists with pointers, you
>>> manipulate triples, so the pointer in question is only the node in
>the
>>> object position in the triple, and you need to remember and carry
>the
>>> corresponding subject-predicate 3. interesting (ie. weird) things
>can
>>> happen at the limits of the list if you don't pay attention.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>>
>https://github.com/betehess/banana-rdf/blob/ldpatch/patch/src/main/scala/Semantics.scala#L62
>>>
>>>> I'm not steeped enough in the intracacies of SPARQL Update to have
>a
>>>> horse
>>>> in this race, but if this issue is the big-animal difference then
>people
>>>> with the necessary understanding are going to want to see the
>details.
>>>> The
>>>> IBM products I'm aware of eschew rdf:List (and blank nodes
>generally, to
>>>> first order), so I don't know how much this one alone would sway
>me.
>>>
>>> You _could_ generate a SPARQL Update query that would do something
>>> equivalent. But you'd have to match and remember the intermediate
>>> nodes/triples.
>>>
>>> JSON-LD users manipulate lists on a day-to-day basis. Without native
>>> support for rdf:list in LD Patch, I would turn to JSON PATCH to
>>> manipulate those lists.
>>>
>>>> It sounds like the other big-animal difference in your email is
>>>>
>>>>> we would have to refine the SPARQL semantics so that the order of
>the
>>>>> clauses matters (ie. no need to depend on a query optimiser). And
>we
>>>>
>>>> That sounds like a more general problem.  It might mean, in effect,
>that
>>>> no
>>>> one would be able to use existing off-the-shelf componentry (specs
>& code
>>>> ... is that the implication, Those Who Know S-U?) and that might
>well be
>>>> a
>>>> solid answer to "why not [use S-U]?"
>>>
>>> The fact that reordering the clauses doesn't change the semantics is
>a
>>> feature of SPARQL. It means that queries can be rearranged for
>>> optimisation purposes. But you never know if the execution plan will
>>> be the best one, and you can end up with huge intermediate result
>>> sets.
>>>
>>> In any case, if we ever go down the SPARQL Update way, I will ask
>that
>>> we specify that clauses are executed in order, or something like
>that.
>>> And I will ask for a semantics that doesn't rely on result sets if
>>> possible.
>>>
>>>> Were there any other big-animal issues you found, those two aside?
>>>
>>> A big issue for me will be to correctly explain the subset of SPARQL
>>> we would be considering, and its limitations compared to its big
>>> brother.
>>>
>>> Also, if you don't implement it from scratch and want to rely on an
>>> existing implementation, you would still have to reject all the
>>> correct SPARQL queries, and that can be tricky too, because you have
>>> to inspect the query after it is parsed. Oh, and I will make sure
>>> there are tests rejecting such queries :-)
>>>
>>> Alexandre
>>>
>>>> Best Regards, John
>>>>
>>>> Voice US 845-435-9470  BluePages
>>>> Cloud and Smarter Infrastructure OSLC Lead
>>>>
>>
>>

Received on Saturday, 26 July 2014 10:10:40 UTC