- From: Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
- Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 00:49:37 -0700
- To: Klaus Weidner <klausw@google.com>
- Cc: "Waliczek, Nell" <nhw@amazon.com>, public-immersive-web-wg@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CADHwi=Q0sp9iXHims3c2OKgK-gDEKX1JzVe1CUw_eDQgMvjfYQ@mail.gmail.com>
On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 12:33 AM Klaus Weidner <klausw@google.com> wrote: > On Sat, Aug 3, 2019, 00:16 Klaus Weidner <klausw@google.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019, 22:30 Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:16 PM Klaus Weidner <klausw@google.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Some background is here: >>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/master/modules.md >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_administrivia_blob_master_modules.md&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=WH7hWc1wkZyx2EkLLT5uyVuSxUV8sSaBgeDEGOVTROY&s=Mp8hiEPyOsb1ZkIDeHcfXNSSf1ikN2rS-2J-HRH0pZ0&e=> >>>> >>> >>> I see. It wasn't clear that the AR enum was going to be broken out and I >>> don't remember that that particular part was ever discussed. >>> >>> There's no real reason to remove "immersive-ar" from the spec so can we >>> leave it in? The parts that are still up in the air can still go in the >>> 'AR' spec. >>> >> >> I'm not one of the spec editors, but is this really a blocking issue? The >> spec already says that *"Future specifications or modules may expand the >> definition of immersive session include additional session modes"*, and >> I think the initial AR module draft is starting imminently. Presumably the >> browser police won't be confiscating headsets for non-compliance if they >> implement a mode from a pending draft module that isn't in the draft core >> spec? >> > > Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that standards compliance is unimportant. It > would be unfortunate if there were an extended gap where core WebXR is > final but the AR module isn't ready yet even for minimal "poses only" use > cases, but my impression is that the editors and working group are trying > their best to avoid that. At this point it's all technically still in draft > status. > No worries! :-) Yes, I'd prefer if it goes in the spec since we don't know how long the AR module will take. We will be telling authors to use 'immersive-ar' and they might (rightly) be concerned that this is not in the standard. I'm concerned that the explainer is encouraging authors to request vr on ar devices and look at the environmentBlendMode attribute. We definitely don't want to support this and I suspect Microsoft will feel the same for the Hololens. What are '"minimal "poses only" use cases'? >>> I was only tangentially involved in the modules discussion, but my >>>> understanding is that the net result of using the core spec + AR module >>>> would be roughly equivalent to the pre-split combined spec, and I don't >>>> think there would be any new requirement to implement VR in such a >>>> combination. I expect that a compliant implementation can still reject >>>> supportsSession and requestSession promises for unsupported modes, after >>>> all it also does this if a user doesn't consent to a session or if a given >>>> system doesn't have the right hardware. >>>> >>> >>> So a browser that just implements 'supportsSession' and 'requestSession' >>> and always rejects them, would be compliant? :-) >>> >> >> Yep, just like a browser can be compliant in supporting the Gamepad API >> even when an uncooperative user doesn't attach any, so it returns zero of >> them. >> >> For WebXR the situation is a bit better, a browser can easily support >> "inline" mode on a computer with no VR/AR hardware, but other modes depend >> on hardware and driver availability. >> > It doesn't look good if a customer asks if we support WebXR and we say that it only works if they use a non-standard extension... > >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019, 20:53 Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:38 PM Klaus Weidner <klausw@google.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> "immersive-ar" isn't going away, its definition is just moving from >>>>>> the core spec to a separate AR module which adds it back. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why would you do that? >>>>> By removing this, we can no longer make a compliant implementation >>>>> since we disallow 'immersive-vr'. >>>>> >>>>> Do you know when this removal was discussed? We don't want to be >>>>> automatically opted into VR experiences because they look out of place in >>>>> an AR headset. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> FWIW, I think it would be nice if there were a way to generate a >>>>>> combined spec that includes major modules for easier reference in one >>>>>> place, as opposed to the GL extension approach of core plus incremental >>>>>> patches, but that's a usability/tooling issue separate from the >>>>>> modularization itself. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I suspect that that won't be possible. Looking at CSS, there's so much >>>>> overhead in updating specs (authors need to be reponsive, group has to >>>>> vote, W3C needs publish, etc) that the style and tooling changes over time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019, 20:11 Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> When was it decided that "immersive-ar" was going to be removed from >>>>>>> the spec? Did I miss something during a weekly call? I searched the IRC >>>>>>> logs but couldn't find anything. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can this enum please be re-added? Otherwise this spec is useless for >>>>>>> AR devices such as Hololens or Magic Leap. We already ship a version of >>>>>>> WebXR with this enum and three.js supports it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 5:39 PM Waliczek, Nell <nhw@amazon.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The two PRs in the WebXR repo have now been merged. With this, the >>>>>>>> WebXR spec is ready for a new Working Draft to be published. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will be merging the two remaining PRs into their respective repos by >>>>>>>> end of business day (Pacific time) on Wednesday August 7th. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From: *"Waliczek, Nell" <nhw@amazon.com> >>>>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 3:57 PM >>>>>>>> *To: *"public-immersive-web-wg@w3.org" < >>>>>>>> public-immersive-web-wg@w3.org> >>>>>>>> *Subject: *Modules split >>>>>>>> *Resent-From: *<public-immersive-web-wg@w3.org> >>>>>>>> *Resent-Date: *Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 3:56 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey Working Group folks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you’re following the WebXR repo, you may have noticed several >>>>>>>> PRs to separate the existing specification into the agreed upon modules. >>>>>>>> If not, this email is intended to give you a heads up that the split is >>>>>>>> underway. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *tl;dr *A bunch of spec text, explainer text, and issues are about >>>>>>>> to move between repos as part of the modules split. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Details* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once the two PRs in the WebXR repo have merged, we will be cutting >>>>>>>> a new Working Draft that will be sent for wide review (PING, TAG, >>>>>>>> Accessibility, Internationalization, etc.) To keep things moving along, >>>>>>>> I’m aiming to merge these two PRs by the end of business day (Pacific time) >>>>>>>> on Friday August 2nd. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Separately, once the PR in the new webxr-gamepads-module repo has >>>>>>>> been merged, we will cut the first Working Draft and also send it for wide >>>>>>>> review. At this time, we are not yet intending to publish a Working Draft >>>>>>>> from the webxr-ar-module repo. However, in both cases, I am aiming to >>>>>>>> merge these two PRs by end of business day (Pacific time) on Wednesday >>>>>>>> August 7th. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Removals from WebXR >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/pull/782 >>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_webxr_pull_782&d=DwMGaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=gW_F_X3uaNn0W7TURDCawHfvXBlgvtmL_7_GjDrWEAI&s=oOld63A2HmXgF29yfElOBFfu10N898Yb0X0TZo10mBc&e=> >>>>>>>> – Gamepad module stuff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/pull/784 >>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_webxr_pull_784&d=DwMGaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=gW_F_X3uaNn0W7TURDCawHfvXBlgvtmL_7_GjDrWEAI&s=FaUj4mD5NlYT2yVXlp8M7NTmrzv-CRLYbID9M8LEKH0&e=> >>>>>>>> – AR module stuff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> New Gamepad module >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-gamepads-module/pull/1 >>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_webxr-2Dgamepads-2Dmodule_pull_1&d=DwMGaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=gW_F_X3uaNn0W7TURDCawHfvXBlgvtmL_7_GjDrWEAI&s=qoCoqeGoIAQ0Lk36_YZEkxnIafRrP8MD1DXXG4jJqVg&e=> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> New Augmented Reality module >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/pull/1 >>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_webxr-2Dar-2Dmodule_pull_1&d=DwMGaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=gW_F_X3uaNn0W7TURDCawHfvXBlgvtmL_7_GjDrWEAI&s=mx4-L2vrNOtaDEewSWh1ZY4usksicEjKwdGuGr7MPFo&e=> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lastly, Brandon and I have gone through all the existing issues in >>>>>>>> the WebXR repo and added labels indicating if they should be moved to new >>>>>>>> repos. If you have concerns about whether or not an issue is tagged >>>>>>>> inappropriately, please comment directly on the issue using the “/agenda” >>>>>>>> tag and we can discuss in the next WG meeting. I will be moving all >>>>>>>> non-contentious issues with the following labels during the day on Thursday >>>>>>>> August 8th. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/labels/gamepad-module >>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_webxr_labels_gamepad-2Dmodule&d=DwMGaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=gW_F_X3uaNn0W7TURDCawHfvXBlgvtmL_7_GjDrWEAI&s=cO-R-daiT1_nmqxDLYLsCT7PaJu4vJ3eOXDRvatUlZg&e=> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/labels/ar-module >>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_webxr_labels_ar-2Dmodule&d=DwMGaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=gW_F_X3uaNn0W7TURDCawHfvXBlgvtmL_7_GjDrWEAI&s=IjcLnJbCEt6MG5VliV8p0t0B0EbHjCZDGK548Yyvf1Y&e=> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/labels/input-profiles >>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_webxr_labels_input-2Dprofiles&d=DwMGaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=gW_F_X3uaNn0W7TURDCawHfvXBlgvtmL_7_GjDrWEAI&s=GyhcQG9v_9syzd9oBQ7SwOFd5aruHZ_avVZma2M6FvM&e=> >>>>>>>> (the repo is currently named xr-gamepad-mappings) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/labels/layers-module >>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_immersive-2Dweb_webxr_labels_layers-2Dmodule&d=DwMGaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=gW_F_X3uaNn0W7TURDCawHfvXBlgvtmL_7_GjDrWEAI&s=7OFxtBT_DmiXWFNfPLYZ1ArdvEHuznT8jn6gpqU8Tc0&e=> >>>>>>>> (not officially a module yet) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Looking forward to getting to the next Working Drafts published! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nell >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
Received on Saturday, 3 August 2019 07:50:17 UTC