- From: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
- Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:09:23 +0000
- To: Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>, "public-idcg@w3.org" <public-idcg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D769346E-AB51-4415-B10D-8FBA453B7668@rakuten.com>
I love this idea, but I think there’s a way to take it a little further.
We currently have a pretty big gap in participation from companies and participants in regions like South America, Africa, and parts of Asia (I believe in academia this is often called the “global south” but I’m not sure of this term and it’s appropriateness in this context).
There’s been tech booms in parts of these regions, in particular Africa, where there’s been movements to stop brain drain and encourage people to start businesses in their home countries, as opposed to travelling to the US/Canada/UK/etc for work. I wonder if a more sustainable and beneficial program would be that the W3C offers free membership to these startups, or even to startups in general with a demonstrated commitment to diversity and inclusion (women-led, BIPOC-led, etc).
I also like the idea of the AC being held to more standards in terms of who they bring to W3C activities, especially the largest companies with the most members.
-Wendy
From: Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:53 PM
To: "public-idcg@w3.org" <public-idcg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: + minutes of 2020-09-15 meeting - Re: Sharing the BLM statement feedback with the AC
Resent-From: <public-idcg@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:53 PM
It occurred to me today that we should consider more impactful ways to incentivize participation by black technologists. For example, what if we offered free membership for any organization that has a rep who is black? At first, I'm sure that will seem "unfair", but the fact that we have pretty near zero black members right now tells me that equal cost is not equity.
-Annette
On 9/15/20 11:22 AM, Heather Vescent wrote:
Thank you for the minutes. I had thought this was on Thursday. I am very sorry I missed it.
Great conversation, and I 100% agree with Kim's comments. If you don't put money where your mouth is, and pay someone and put them in a position of power to act and you protect them, you may as well do nothing. (What I have learned after 80 hours of my own research on the topic.)
If you decide to move forward, I would like to participate 100%. Regardless, I continue with my own research/plan for the CCG CG.
Cheers,
-Heather
On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 11:08 AM Coralie Mercier <coralie@w3.org<mailto:coralie@w3.org>> wrote:
Hi Léonie, all,
With clarification that the IDCG’s next step is to “recommend to the W3C Director” (to postpone publishing the statement), I have added the video to the online minutes of our dialogue:
https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-minutes.html#t01
(the text version is copied at the bottom.)
Coralie
> On 15 Sep 2020, at 17:56 , Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com<mailto:lwatson@tetralogical.com>> wrote:
>
> Everyone,
>
> On today's call it was agreed that we would share Kim's video with the AC and let them know that we plan to [recommend to the W3C Director to] postpone publishing the proposed statement.
>
> Coralie, is it possible to host the video (plus captioned version) in W3C space before we share it?
>
> Thanks
> Léonie.
>
> --
> Director @TetraLogical
> https://tetralogical.com
Text version of the minutes:
----------------------------
IDCG Meeting
15 September 2020
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Sep/0021.html
[3] https://www.w3.org/2020/09/15-idcg-irc
Attendees
Present
Annette_Greiner, Barb_Hochgesang, Coralie_Mercier,
Dan_Appelquist, Jeff_Jaffe, Judy_Brewer, Kim_Crayton,
Léonie_Watson, Marisa_DeMeglio, Ralph_Swick,
Tess_O'connor, Tobie_Langel, Tzviya_Siegman, Wendy_Reid
Regrets
chaals
Chair
Léonie
Scribe
jeff
Contents
1. [4]Video
2. [5]Dialogue with Kim Crayton
Meeting minutes
<koalie> [6]Previous (2020-09-01)
[6] https://www.w3.org/2020/09/01-idcg-minutes.html
Video
Kim Crayton has generously reviewed the W3C BLM statement and
has provided feedback via video:
IFRAME:
[7]https://app.streamfizz.live/embed/ckf46za96uet80731fjmy9hyb
[7] https://app.streamfizz.live/embed/ckf46za96uet80731fjmy9hyb
Dialogue with Kim Crayton
Leonie: Background leading up to this meeting
… this meeting is to figure out next steps
… Kim, can you summarize your feedback?
Dan: I watched Kim's video
… urge everyone else to listen and be receptive
Kim_Crayton: Tobie reached out 2 weeks ago
… feedback on BLM statement
… I offered to do that pro bono due to W3C's global influence
… introduces me to new spaces
… I was surprised that this homogeneous group would reach out
… my style may not comfort you
… the statement on its surface was not bad
… but it was not a BLM statement
… so the title did not fit
… not surprising, no black lives in this group
… white people need to stop speaking for black lives
… I was frustrated by your process
… context is loss in your email chain
… how do you get anything done?
… is that the best you can do?
… pretty crappy
… I told Tobie I need to talk to you
<koalie> [Tess arrives]
Kim_Crayton: I decided on video so nothing lost in translation
… To say "we support people" it's not bad
… if it is supporting a specific group, it is harmful to bring
other things into that statement
… BLM + blah blah blah is crap
… Also, anti-blackness is global
… not just US
… even where there are no black people
… anti-blackness is everywhere
… that's why the movement went global in the middle of a
pandemic
… tech is not neutral
… intention without strategy is chaos
… that is where this statement is leading
… I commend you for stopping
… lack of inclusion is a risk
… crisis management issue
… most companies have nothing in place
… engaging in safe ways is a crisis management issue
… white folks feeling a portion of what it is like
… this is white supremacy eating on its host
… you might have cared; but not enough
… the fact that you are late doesn't matter
… you are engaging becauses it causes harm to you
… you don't like how you feel
… only seeing white faces - that's a problem
… The violence statement was a red light
… people said we need to stop
… BLM, but with conditions?
… promotes a racist trope
… you should be thankful that black people have not rioted and
taken over your cities
… Blacks were not considered people
… the fact that we don't run down white folks says something
about our humanity
Leonie: Comments? Questions?
Barbara: I live in Portland
… totally relate
… a very white city struggling to move forward
… I am more action oriented
… if you were us - what are the 2, 3 things you recommend to
move forward
Kim: Portland is a great example of what is problematic
… they do all of this stuff
… but they are very racist
… and have not owned up
… white folks think they are helping and are doing harm
… I'm not fixing this for free
… you need to decide if you want a solidarity statement or a
BLM statement
… you don't need me for the former
… just remove the BLM title
… if you want a BLM statement
… (and thereby create a template for others)
… and dealing with the issues in tech more generally
… then I can help
Judy: I'm on W3C staff
… I would support paying a consultant
… some working on statements, some working on actions
… W3C is a key influence point in the tech field
… if W3C can develop some actions to improve
… and help others to do the same
… it would be a tiny piece in the right direction
… some members have an interest in W3C helping with that
process
… pull together resources and actions
… you said you don't want to provide free advice
… so I don't know what else to say.
Kim: I saw your strategies in the letter
… they don't apply depending on your path
… it is moot since it is not a BLM statements
… as a consultant I can both draft a statement and build a
playbook
… white folks should not do this by themselves,
… but I need them involved as a white shield
… without interpretation and change of nuance
… life is full of gray
… playbook needs to be iterative
Tzviya: Thanks Kim for the video, etc.
… assuming we have a BLM statement - can you point us to some
companies who have done this well?
Kim: A billionaire reached out to me
… he was going to give the money away
… <provides the name> (not scribed since it is personal)
… wanted to give money to black businesses
… anti-racist education tech foundation
… told him that this does not exist
… I've gotten so many calls
… this is new
… this doesn't exist
… think of yourselves as pioneers
… we get to counter the narratives of companies who are
lobbying
… will result in equity
… people are thinking about it; but noone is doing it
… let's get ahead of the harm
… provide alternatives
Wendy: Your feedback was amazing
… I had written the first draft of the statment
… I'm Canadian
… that's part of why I included indigeneous
… fused with BLM in Canada
Kim: Indeed, some are trying to annihilate indigeneous people
Wendy: I don't want to forget that group
… as a group we need to discuss direction
… so BLM v all lives matter - this is screwed up
Kim: Consider this a free coaching session
… You made a binary statement
… We all have a unique experiences
… even indigeneous cultures have anti-blackness
… all sorts of folks pass as white: indigeneous, Jewish
… that's the binary thinking that white folks have
… you can have multiple statements. But they need to be
separate
… that is why I told Judy that this is not about people with
disabilities
… you need to think in grays
Leonie: We extended our statement because this is not always
binary
… people of color with disabilities; LGBTQ
… how do we handle that
Kim: Here you intended a BLM statement
… so you dilute that by bringing in the other things
… white people have never been left out
… you must stop gatekeeping
Annette: Can we share the video with the AC
Kim: Please
… don't translate for me
Annette: In terms of a solidarity statement
… is that worse than no statement?
Kim: Not for me to decide
Annette: What would it be?
Kim: Worthless
Leonie: To whom?
Kim: Who would the statement benefit
Leonie: The intention is that it would be helpful for people
from marginalized communities
Kim: Intention without strategy is chaos
… how would the statement help?
… that's my view
Leonie: Well, Annette had asked about a solidarity statement
… off of that you said it would be worthless
… and I said why - it is not worthless to me as part of one
marginalized community
Kim: It is worthless for the long term
Kim: Does not help black lives
… everyone has a solidarity statement
… does nothing for me
… it is the status quo
… do you want to stick with that?
Leonie: We as a CG have some decisions to make
… we have clear advice from Kim
… publishing the statement in the current form does not support
BLM
… anyone think that is a mischaracterization?
Wendy: I agree we should not publish in the current state
… it was not my intention to cause more harm than good
… W3C can be a leader
… but we need help
… we also noted the lack of black people
… (and often the lack of women at W3C)
… I want us to be a leader
… but I want it to be the right way
… I want a BLM statement
… that requires changing the wording massively
<dka_> +1 to listening to Kim's feedback and to publishing a
proper BLM statement.
Wendy: doing it right is better even if later
Kim: Don't worry about the time
… we started this thing
… we stepped on the breaks because we did not want to cause
harm
… so we decided to create a strategy
Annette: We need to do more than reword it
… we need to rethink our strategy
… make W3C more black
Kim: Needs to be an international black lives matter statement
… says you are thoughtful
… recognize a global problem
Tzviya: We also discussed an equity review board
… early stages
… should we shift focus to recruiting more people
… shift our energies to actual actions
… sad that we are non-diverse
… big problem that this is a white group
Kim: I don't use terms like fair since that is decided by
people in power
… I don't talk about equality
… give two families $100 for groceries
… one with farms and quality food; a car; kids in day care and
they have choices
… the other lives in a food desert. Most go to convenience
store. They don't have a call.
… it is not equal
… need to supplement family that does not have a car.
… money for taxis, baby sitter
… so they have same quality of food
… equal ability to prepare the food
… if people don't understand from the perspective of lived
experiences?
… tech loves qualitative data
… quantitative data helps experience
Leonie: We all think the review board needs people of color
Kim: We recruit these people
<Ralph> [I heard qualitative vs quantitative the other way
'round]
Kim: but we fall flat on retention
<jeff> [Ralph, feel free to correct the record]
Kim: Looking at these white faces - you failed.
Leonie: In a community that is almost white, how do we make it
more welcoming
… we need to take responsibility
<Ralph> [others might wish to record how they heard those
remarks]
Leonie: that's what this community is doing.
<jeff> [You can provide a responsible opposing view]
Leonie: We have almost no people of color.
Kim: You don't know any black people?
Leonie: We do, but we don't want to impose on people's time
Kim: But you are willing to fix a problem that you don't
understand?
Tzviya: We don't want to tell black people what to do
… we don't select the people who join W3C
Kim: That this is moot.
… you don't have the power.
… I'm hearing excuses
… you have not taken ownership
… you have not created a space where black people would feel
safe
Annette: Here is how the AC works
… when an organization joins, they are the ones that nominate
an AC rep
Kim: So that needs to change
… where is the power?
… why do it here if you don't have the power.
… push it up to where the power is
Wendy: I'm not an AC rep
… we are a CG
… we have some status
… but we don't have the power
… the CEO is listening
… my company is global
… why can't they send a diverse set of representatives
… we should demand that our members send their best and most
diverse candidates
… I am giving an AC presentation
… I will ask them about that
… as a CG we should decide what we want to do
… the companies have diverse workforces
Kim: So Jeff is the CEO
… that is why I talk to leadership
… I have a finite bandwidth
… I don't like being translated
… people without power get burned out
… people in leadership need to advocate
… needs to come from the top
… communicated as an important initiative
… but I don't work with focus without power
… leadership needs to be at the table
Jeff: That's why I'm here
Judy: I wanted to give some examples
… with regard to inclusion of women
… over decades we kept hearing that W3C cannot do anything
about it
… must rely on AC
… we pushed back
… start talking about standards career path
… then our membership started sending more engineers
… then women said it was uncomfortable
… then made it more welcoming
… similar thing happened with disability
… good is some areas
… but it took many years to recruit, mentor, encourage, find
people with disabilities
… still working to be more welcoming
… we are in early stage for racial justice
Kim: In your efforts for women and disabilities
… you don't have black people
… still get left out
… women becomes white women
… LGBTQ becomes white LGBTQ
… disabilities become white disabilities
… I'm focused on the most vulnerable
Barbara: In my large company I see no effort
… I appreciate Judy's work
… but I've not seen it
… so is this a focus
… there seem to be no teeth or action
Kim: Without Jeff signing off I won't be doing it.
Leonie: I propose that we share the video feedback to the AC
… and recommend that we not publish the statement as is
… we will get back to them once we consider other steps
<dka_> +1
<tzviya> +1
<marisa> +1
<annette_g> +1
Leonie: since IDCG needs to rethink the plan
<hober> +1
<wendyreid> +1
<BarbH> +1
<jeff> +1 with coordination with W3M and the current WBS survey
<wendyreid> coralie: +1
several additional verbal: +1
… thanks Kim for all that you offered and shared
Kim: Thanks for having me
<BarbH> Great job. Learned a lot
Kim: you are bold to have invited me
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[8]scribe.perl version 123 (Tue Sep 1 21:19:13 2020 UTC).
[8] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
--
Coralie Mercier - W3C Marketing & Communications - https://www.w3.org
mailto:coralie@w3.org<mailto:coralie@w3.org> +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/Coralie/
--
Heather Vescent<http://www.heathervescent.com/>
Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C<https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/>
President, The Purple Tornado, Inc<https://thepurpletornado.com/>
Author, The Secret of Spies<https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available Oct 2020)
Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual<https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised, Dec 2020)
Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign Identity<https://ssiscoop.com/>
@heathervescent<https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film Futures<https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> | Medium<https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> | Future of Security Updates<https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/>
--
Annette Greiner (she)
NERSC Data and Analytics Services
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
Received on Tuesday, 15 September 2020 20:09:48 UTC