RE: New Thread - FVS Assignment MisMatch

These are great examples.
Thanks much,
Greg


From: Erdenechimeg Myatav [mailto:erdeely@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 12:03 AM
To: Greg Eck <greck@postone.net>
Cc: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Subject: Fwd: New Thread - FVS Assignment MisMatch

Hi Greg,

The form of Q before MVS-A would be called "final form".

I attach a picture of QQIR.


Re U+1835:

I can only think of one word which includes the
'loop' variant glyph, viz. \u182A\u1824\u1822\u202F\u1835\u180E\u1820
ᠪᠤᠢ ᠵ᠋ ᠠ ( (bui_j-a)  - I attach a picture of the written version)

Here again the J precedes MVS so this form would generally be referred to as a final form in teaching.


Re U+1836:

Here there are a number of words which include the 'loop' variant, for example

\u1826\u1836\u180E\u1821
\u1836\u1820\u182A\u1824\u1836\u180E\u1820
\u1835\u1820\u1836\u180E\u1820
ᠦᠶ ᠡ᠋ ᠂ ᠶᠠᠪᠤᠶ ᠠ᠂ ᠵᠠᠶ ᠠ ( (үе, uy-e ; явяа, yabvy-a; заяа, jay-a)   picture attached)

But the loop variant glyph is always immediately followed by MVS, so again the loop variant would generally be referred to as a final form in teaching.


Best wishes,

Erdenechimeg

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Greg Eck <greck@postone.net<mailto:greck@postone.net>>
Date: Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: New Thread - FVS Assignment MisMatch
To: Erdenechimeg Myatav <erdeely@gmail.com<mailto:erdeely@gmail.com>>
Hi Erdenechimeg,

So nice of you to join in on the discussion. All of us in this thread owe you a great deal considering your early work in pioneering the encoding of traditional Mongolian. Thank you for your good comments also.

I wonder if you might comment on the matter of the final U+182C-QA. There is none according to the strict grammarian. However as we look at the case with the Stem_Final_Q+MVS+A, how would the Ulaanbaatar school teacher describe the Q before the MVS-A. Would the teacher call this a final Q? In shape it certainly is even if it never appears at the ultimate end of a word.

Interesting example you mention of the XXIR (ie. QQIR). Do you have a moment to write it out, scan it and send it back to us?

Any further thoughts on the U+1835 / U+1836 portions?

Thanks much and so glad you are here with us,
Greg


From: Erdenechimeg Myatav [mailto:erdeely@gmail.com<mailto:erdeely@gmail.com>]
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2015 3:17 AM
To: Greg Eck <greck@postone.net<mailto:greck@postone.net>>
Subject: Re: New Thread - FVS Assignment MisMatch

Hi Greg,

A few comments on some of the issues you raise and some of the discrepancies between the various fonts.

U+1820 - A

Re point 3, the glyph at I+FVS1 (and M+FVS2 in NSM font)  is only used after NNBSP, i.e. it is always the first letter of a word suffix/case. Teachers of Mongolian script always refer to this as initial form, which is the basis for the coding at I+FVS1. However, in the Unicode standard the decision was made to code it as a middle form (basically because it appears in the middle of the word), which is why it appears at M+FVS2 in some fonts.

I think the M+FVS2 combination could be omitted, as is done in BS.

U+1828 - NA

The glyph at M+FVS2 was defined as a middle form in Unicode for the same reason as given above for U+1820-A - i.e. because it appears in the middle of the word. However, this form only occurs immediately before MVS, and as such teachers of Mongolian script refer to it as the "dotted final form". So in my view it makes more sense for it to be coded as F+FVS1 rather than as M+FVS2.

Regarding the forms at M and M+FVS1, the dotted form is used before a vowel, whereas the non-dotted form is used before a consonant. The letter NA is almost always followed by a vowel, so the dotted form is by far the more common. So I think it makes most sense for the dotted form to be the basic form and the non-dotted form to be the variant, as in NSM and BS.


U+182C - QA

As far as I understand, the dotted forms are archaic forms and are not used in modern Mongolian. So it certainly makes sense for the non-dotted forms to be the default forms.

Regarding the feminine forms at I+FVS1 and M+FVS1 in NSM and BS, the feminine form always forms a ligature with the following vowel. But there is (at least) one word in which the feminine initial QA is followed by a consonant - in fact by another QA in the example I can think of: U+182C U+182C U+1822 U+1837 (XXIR) - and in this word the glyph for the initial QA is the one shown at I+FVS1 in NSM and BS.

U+182D - GA

Re point 1, this double dotted glyph only occurs immediately before MVS (analogously to the dotted glyph of NA; see comment above), and again teachers of Mongolian script refer to it as a final form rather than a middle form. So I think it makes more sense for it to be represented as a final form variant rather than a middle form variant.

Regarding the forms at M and M+FVS1, as for NA the dotted form is used before a vowel, whereas the non-dotted form is used before a consonant and GA is almost always followed by a vowel, so the dotted form is by far the more common. So again I think it makes most sense for the dotted form to be the basic form and the non-dotted form to be the variant, as in NSM and BS.


Thanks,
Erdenechimeg





On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Greg Eck <greck@postone.net<mailto:greck@postone.net>> wrote:
We are winding down on the NNBSP discussion.

Let’s go ahead with another topic as attached dealing with 6 FVS assignments. The basic issue is that the current specification says to make the assignment at one position whereas the glyph is processed by OT rulings at another position.

Greg