RE: Noto Sans Mongolian: NNBSP/MVS substitution rules

Could we delay the discussion just a bit?
I am working on getting a paper out on 6 characters in particular that are problematic in their FVS medial specifications.
These are U+1820, U+1828, U+182C, U+182D, U+1835, U+1836 – all medials.
If we can have this discussion first, it might make the current discussion below easier.
I hope to have this paper out by tomorrow.
Greg


From: jrmt@almas.co.jp [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 11:58 PM
To: Greg Eck; 'Mansour, Kamal'; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Subject: RE: Noto Sans Mongolian: NNBSP/MVS substitution rules

Hi Greg,

I have found some NNBSP rule in Noto Sans Mongolian is slightly different with our discussion conclusion.
I have commented some different point in the attached PDF file.
Please check it first and if you need me to include in my discussion list, I will do it next week.

Thanks and Best Regards,

Jirimutu
==========================================================
Almas Inc.
101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp<mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>   Mobile : 090-6174-6115
Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
http://www.almas.co.jp/   http://www.compiere-japan.com/

==========================================================


From: jrmt@almas.co.jp<mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 12:56 AM
To: 'Greg Eck'; 'Mansour, Kamal'; 'public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org'
Subject: RE: Noto Sans Mongolian: NNBSP/MVS substitution rules

Hi Greg,

I have found some NNBSP rule in Noto Sans Mongolian is slightly different with our discussion conclusion.
I have commented some different point in the attached PDF file.
Please check it first and if you need me to include in my discussion list, I will do it next week.

Thanks and Best Regards,

Jirimutu
==========================================================
Almas Inc.
101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp<mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>   Mobile : 090-6174-6115
Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
http://www.almas.co.jp/   http://www.compiere-japan.com/

==========================================================




From: Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:32 AM
To: Mansour, Kamal; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org<mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Noto Sans Mongolian: NNBSP/MVS substitution rules

Hi Kamal,

The problems with the NNBSP really come about at upper-level layout or utilities development such as spell-checking. Baiti does not really have a problem until you come to upper-level layout such as in MS Word. You might check things like word-count or CTL-RIGHT/LEFT word jumping.

Every font and associated technology is going to be different. I think that we need to leave this up to the individual developer/company as to where and how the shaping takes place. I personally think that the font can handle all MVS/NNBSP processing at the OT substitution level. This of course presumes the USE/Harfbuzz/arabictyping.txt system setting the appropriate <isol><init><medi><fina> tags.

Greg




From: Mansour, Kamal [mailto:Kamal.Mansour@monotype.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 6:39 AM
To: Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org<mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Noto Sans Mongolian: NNBSP/MVS substitution rules

Greg,
I don’t remember any specific problems related to NNBSP, but we did not have the abundance of real test cases to give us high confidence in our code.

In the case of control characters such as MVS and NNBSP, one needs to be sure where they will be processed. Will a pre-pass filter them out, or will they be available to be handled in the OpenType rules? Has there been a clear declaration or recommendation as to which level they will be processed? These are among the questions I could not resolve.

Kamal

From: Greg Eck <greck@postone.net<mailto:greck@postone.net>>
Date: Friday, 10 July 2015 at 18:53
To: Kamal Mansour <kamal.mansour@monotype.com<mailto:kamal.mansour@monotype.com>>, "public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org<mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>" <public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org<mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Noto Sans Mongolian: NNBSP/MVS substitution rules

Hi Kamal,
Thanks for the pdf – it is very clear.
Have you experienced any problems with the NNBSP context that you have not been able to resolve?
Greg


From: Mansour, Kamal [mailto:Kamal.Mansour@monotype.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 3:07 AM
To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org<mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
Subject: Noto Sans Mongolian: NNBSP/MVS substitution rules




The attached PDF document shows the OpenType substitution rules of Noto Sans Mongolian for contexts affected by the presence of either of the control characters, NNBSP and MVS.



The document depicts each rule in a mixed textual and graphic form. In text form, we refer to each glyph by its name such as ‘u1826.ini’. The naming scheme was devised to be intuitively understood by those familiar with Mongolian script. For instance, “u1826.ini” represents the initial form of character U+1826 (Ue), while u1833.medV1 points to the first variant of the medial form of U+1833 (Da).



A * in any column means that this portion of the context (typically, before or after) need not match any particular value.

Lines starting with a % are simply comments provided for further clarity.



Each rule is broken into 4 columns as follows:



Main context

The glyph being examined is shown in its graphic form along with its name



Before

Shows the glyph that should precede the main context

After

Shows the glyph that should follow the main context



Result

If the current run of text matches the glyph shown in the main context, as well as those of the

before & after contexts, the glyph in the main context will be replaced by the one in the Result field.



Kamal

From: Greg Eck <greck@postone.net<mailto:greck@postone.net>>
Date: Thursday, 9 July 2015 at 01:57
To: Kamal Mansour <kamal.mansour@monotype.com<mailto:kamal.mansour@monotype.com>>, "public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org<mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>" <public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org<mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact

Hi Kamal,

Nice to hear from you especially as a Noto Sans representative.
Speaking for the group, yes we are very interested to hear.
In particular, I would like to hear of problems that you have faced with the NNBSP in any area – from the shaping of glyphs in NNBSP contexts to impact in upper-level layout.
Please let us know if you have had any difficulties with the MVS also.

Thanks,
Greg


From: Mansour, Kamal [mailto:Kamal.Mansour@monotype.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2015 12:11 AM
To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org<mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
Subject: Re: NNBSP-MVS Impact


Would the members of the list be interested in seeing how the substitution rules of Noto Sans Mongolian handle MVS and NNBSP?
Regards,

Kamal Mansour