- From: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com>
- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:39:51 -0800
- To: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
- CC: "public-i18n-core@w3.org" <public-i18n-core@w3.org>, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Thank you. You're right. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect (Lab126) Chair (W3C I18N, IETF IRI WGs) Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Martin J. Dürst" [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 12:21 AM > To: Phillips, Addison > Cc: public-i18n-core@w3.org; Richard Ishida > Subject: Re: [widget] proposal to add defaultlocale attribute to > widget element (P&C Spec), was Re: [widgets] Span example > > Hello Addison, > > I thought I had sent a mail earlier, but there's an important word > missing below (or I completely misunderstand the whole discussion). > > Regards, Martin. > > On 2011/02/09 16:32, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > Proposed reply for tomorrow. > > > > -- > > Dear Marcos, > > > > [replying on behalf of I18N WG.etc] > > > > We agree that > > NOT > > > providing a default locale for a Widget is an oversight in the > Widget's localization model. The ability to provide multiple > languages in the configuration file or in the locales directory > structure does not provide the Widget container with a clear choice > when the runtime language is not one of the languages provided. > > > > Part of this oversight may be due to an expectation that there > would be a "default" set of resources present in the Widget. For > example, if you had a structure like this: > > > > Foo.html > > /locales > > /de-DE > > Foo.html > > > > ... then the top "Foo.html" is the default and "/locales/de- > DE/Foo.html" represents a German appropriate resource corresponding > to that same file. The language of the top-level resource can be > anything and can be defined using the usual attributes. However, > there is no requirement that such content be provided nor that it > be in any particular language. > > > > This does not, as you point out, work with items defined in the > config.xml file itself. > > > > In practice, most resource systems require that the "base" or > "root" locale's resources be present to guarantee full > functionality. The description in Widget's P&C implies this. It > should state it explicitly and/or provide a mechanism for > specifying the default. > > > > The attribute 'defaultlocale' that you propose makes sense as a > means of doing this. The alternative is to overload xml:lang="", > but this has a number of negative things associated with it--such > as the fact that it prevents the format from indicating what > language the default is. > > > > Finally, on a separate topic, we want to note that there is > significant progress on internationalization of ECMAScript going on > currently, which will be of great benefit to widget writers > interested in internationalization and which may be of interest to > Webapps WG as a result. > > --- > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect (Lab126) > > Chair (W3C I18N, IETF IRI WGs) > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: public-i18n-core-request@w3.org [mailto:public-i18n-core- > >> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Marcos Caceres > >> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 5:29 AM > >> To: public-webapps; public-i18n-core@w3.org > >> Cc: Richard Ishida > >> Subject: [widget] proposal to add defaultlocale attribute to > widget > >> element (P&C Spec), was Re: [widgets] Span example > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Marcos > Caceres<marcosc@opera.com> > >> wrote: > >>> Hi Richard, > >>> > >>> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Richard Ishida<ishida@w3.org> > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> The example looks rather baroque, but I think it does > illustrate > >> a number > >>>> of points. (I think that in real life it may be simpler to > just > >> use > >>>> xml:lang="he" and dir="rtl" on the description tag in a > >> localized config > >>>> file like this. The example does currently illustrate > >> inheritance though. > >>> > >>> Yeah, the example is convoluted on purpose to illustrate all > the > >> features > >>> you mentioned. > >>> > >>>> > >>>> It also shows how to markup up the language while still > marking > >> default > >>>> text for localization failures. I hadn't realised that that > was > >> how you > >>>> indicated the default for localization. FWIW I'd have > preferred > >> a special > >>>> attribute for that, rather than overloading the xml:lang > >> attribute, but I > >>>> guess it's too late to change that now. An attribute like > >>>> localizationdefault="yes" would reduce the need for the extra > >> spans. > >>> > >>> good point. We can add it to our list of things to add in the > >> future. > >> > >> Seems the future finally arrived!:)... After some experience > with > >> deploying i18nlized widgets and trying to communicate the i18n > >> model > >> of widgets to developers, Opera strongly feels the need to add a > >> "defaultlocale" (or similarly named) attribute to the widget > >> element > >> defined in the P&C spec. > >> > >> As was pointed out by Richard, the problem with the current spec > is > >> that we have overloaded the semantics and functionality of > xml:lang. > >> As a result, the only way for an author to say that some content > is > >> not localized was for it not to have an xml:lang attribute (or > for > >> the > >> xml:lang attribute to be explicitly empty). This is causing > >> confusion > >> amongst our development community. What would be preferable > would > >> be > >> to have some means for authors to explicitly declare the default > >> locale of a widget. > >> > >> Consider the addition of a defaultlocale attribute: > >> > >> <widget xmlns = "http://www.w3.org/ns/widgets" > >> defaultlocale = "en-us"> > >> > >> <name short="Weather" xml:lang="en-us"> > >> The Ultimate Weather Widget > >> </name> > >> > >> <name short="Boletim" xml:lang="pt"> > >> Boletim Metereológico > >> </name> > >> </widget> > >> > >> As in this case there is no unlocalized content, the user agent > >> that > >> does not support either 'en-us' or 'pt' will not select any > content > >> (!). Having the defaultlocale allows the author to hint to user > >> agent > >> which one of the two to use in case it cannot match any content > >> (and > >> returns xml:lang to having its original function - indicating > the > >> language of an element and its children). > >> > >> A further advantage, which Richard also alluded to, to having a > >> defaultlocale is that is avoids the "baroque" constructions like: > >> > >> <widget ...> > >> <name short="Boletim" xml:lang=""> > >> <span xml:lang="pt">Boletim Metereológico</span> > >> </name> > >> </widget> > >> > >> And has the advantage that the short attribute can also be > >> identified > >> as being in Portuguese (this is actually fairly critical on the > >> Widget > >> API side, as widget.shortName.lang would not have a language > >> associated with it). > >> > >> How it would work: to keep it simple, a one-to-one match would > be > >> used to derive the default locale of a widget. So, saying > default > >> locale is "en" will only match elements with xml:lang="en". > Default > >> locale is only used iff the user agent cannot match any > localized > >> content. > >> > >> Proposed changes to spec: > >> > >> 1. The semantics of defaultlocale would be defined as part of > the > >> widget element definition. > >> 2. I18n section of spec would be updated to show examples of > usage > >> 3. A "default locale" would be defined as part of the > configuration > >> defaults (Step 3 in processing) > >> 4. How to process defaultlocale would be defined in Step 7. > >> > >> Adding the defaultlocale will not affect existing content as all > >> current rutimes behave as is defaultlocale = "". > >> > >> Thoughts and comments welcomed. I'll start spec'ing this up in > the > >> meantime. > >> > >> -- > >> Marcos Caceres > >> Opera Software ASA, http://www.opera.com/ > >> http://datadriven.com.au > > > > -- > #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
Received on Wednesday, 9 February 2011 14:40:25 UTC