Re: [css-ruby] ruby-position on 2 line subtitles/captions

On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 11:40 PM, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gmail.com> wrote:

> I put this onto the wiki[1].
>
> Naming of the value looks fine, and I support the use case. However,
> it looks like we don't receive interests to implement in UA at this
> point, and I18N WG expressed they wish to keep the Level 1 as minimum
> as possible.
>
> As long as we don't see strong objections to the naming, and as long
> as TTML/WebVTT uses some translation rules to render in UA, As Xidorn
> pointed out, they should be ok to translate the 'outside' value to a
> CSS selector.
>
> Glenn, one more thing you may want to checkout is whether
> text-emphasis-position has the same issue or not. I suspect it does, I
> remember seeing such in movies, but your people must know it better.
>

yes it does; i think i mentioned this earlier in the thread


> [1] https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css-ruby-2
>
> /koji
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 2:20 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> So TTML doesn't use UAs to render?
> >
> >
> > Both TTML and WebVTT assume that some entity, e.g., server, client side
> > scripting, or embedded UA functionality, will either translate to an
> > available directly supported renderable form, e.g., HTML+CSS, SVG+CSS,
> etc.,
> > or will render directly. Consequently, there is generally an attempt
> made to
> > choose an expression that can be readily translated into an
> {HTML/SVG}+CSS
> > equivalent that preserves the intended presentation semantics.
> >
> >>
> >> JLREQ clearly states that its
> >> coverage is limited to regular books such as novels, so I'm not
> >> surprised it's not in there, but no motivations/use cases in Web nor
> >> UA engines concerns me a bit to define it.
> >
> >
> > That is a good point to make, because many folks perceive JLREQ as
> > articulating a wider range of requirements. It is a good reminder that it
> > does not, and that we should not *solely* rely on JLREQ to define all
> > requirements, but need to look elsewhere as well.
> >
> > The semantics I am discussing here is outside of the explicit JLREQ
> scope,
> > but remains a real world requirement. So the group will need to weigh
> how to
> > proceed.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Maybe we should create a wiki page for CSS Ruby Level 2 and put it
> >> there, unless Xidorn or any implementers wish to implement. Does that
> >> work?
> >>
> >> /koji
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> As I see it in almost every movie I watch, and in every Karaoke too,
> >> >> I've been wondering why there were no requests so far.
> >> >>
> >> >> Naming wise, 'outside' looks a good candidate to me. Other candidates
> >> >> we tried for the text-align property was 'first-last' or 'first
> last'.
> >> >> It was removed for other reasons but there were a few concerns on the
> >> >> naming during the review, so they might not be good candidates.
> >> >>
> >> >> Are you just asking naming ideas that fits well to CSS,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If someone has a better name than 'outside', I'm sure we could use it
> >> > with
> >> > TTML.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> or also asking
> >> >> as a possible addition of this value to CSS Ruby?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Since this is a real requirement that isn't discussed by JLREQ and
> isn't
> >> > addressed by the current css-ruby draft, it seems natural that such a
> >> > value
> >> > should be added. It may also help when TTML is translated to HTML/CSS
> >> > for
> >> > rendering.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> /koji
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Xidorn Quan <
> quanxunzhen@gmail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:05 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Recent work on supporting deployed Japanese Subtitling/Captions
> in
> >> >> >>> TTML
> >> >> >>> indicates a requirement to support ruby positioning on 2 line
> >> >> >>> subtitles/captions where the first line uses right/above (before)
> >> >> >>> and
> >> >> >>> the
> >> >> >>> second line uses left/below (after). We have addressed this in
> TTML
> >> >> >>> by
> >> >> >>> introducing an 'outside' keyword, which is interpreted as
> 'before'
> >> >> >>> for
> >> >> >>> lines
> >> >> >>> 1 through N-1 and 'after' for the Nth (last) line.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I guess it would make more sense to combine ::first-line with
> >> >> >> ruby-position than to define a new value. It would have different
> >> >> >> behavior
> >> >> >> from what you defined here when there are more than two lines,
> but I
> >> >> >> wonder
> >> >> >> if either way gives an ideal result in that case.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > TTML doesn't have selectors, so that option isn't available there.
> >> >> > Even
> >> >> > if
> >> >> > it were available, it doesn't seem quite proper to distribute the
> >> >> > semantics
> >> >> > of positioning in that fashion, i.e., to rely upon first line
> >> >> > overrides.
> >> >> > But, yes, that remains an option with CSS.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - Xidorn
>