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Re: Specifying the vertical positioning of the kihon-hanmen

From: Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:42:45 +0900
Message-ID: <52DE4115.7010106@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
To: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com>
CC: "CJK discussion (public-i18n-cjk@w3.org)" <public-i18n-cjk@w3.org>
Hello James,

On 2014/01/21 12:14, James Clark wrote:
> Before I ask my question, I just wanted to say thank you to everybody
> involved in producing the "Requirements for Japanese Text Layout" note.
> It is an extraordinarily interesting and helpful document.
> The note says [1] that the vertical position of the kihon-hanmen relative
> to the trim size is either centered or specified using the head (ie
> top-margin), for horizontal mode, or foot (ie bottom margin) for vertical
> writing mode.
> I am puzzled by the vertical writing mode case.  Given that the inline
> progression direction is top-to-bottom, what is the logic for specifying
> the bottom rather than the top margin in this case?  Do you specify the
> bottom margin even if you have horizontal rather than vertical running
> heads/foots?

This is a very good question Makoto (MURATA) forwarded it to the 
member-japanese-layout-ja@w3.org mailing list.

Toshi Kobayashi, one of the core members of the Japanese Layout 
Taskforce, sent a detailed reply in Japanese. Those who have W3C Member 
acces can view it at 
Even if you don't understand, I recommend to have a look at the images 
in the attachment.

As explained by Mr. Kobayashi, this goes back to paper publishing. When 
creating a book, a number of pages (in Japan usually 16) are printed on 
a big sheet of paper in such a way that when that paper is folded and 
then cut up, the pages end up in the right order.

Exactly the same process is followed for both horizontally and 
vertically printed books to avoid confusion. But because the page order 
in vertically printed books is from right to left, and in horizontally 
printed books, it's from left to right, what's "exactly the same" in 
terms of folding topology ends up to be on other ends (top vs. bottom) 
of the finished page.

So the top/bottom change has little if anything to do with what's on the 
page, and all with the direction the pages are numbered.

This is only a summary of Mr. Kobayashi's mail, but it should capture 
the essence.

Regards,   Martin.

> James
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#procedure_for_defining_the_kihonhanmen at
Received on Tuesday, 21 January 2014 09:43:33 UTC

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