RE: dir=auto makes no sense for descendant user-visible attributes

Hi once more.  I finally went over the bug filed by Aharon:

https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16160

Most of the text in it -- except maybe paragraph 3 -- is very clear and stands pretty much as is.  Below are possible corrections for a a couple of minor nits plus my interpretation of paragraph 3 (which  probably should be fixed, unless you all are sure that others will understand it):

Proofreading Nits Only Not Important

Paragraph 2, sentence 2:
"The dir=auto feature is designed for use
in web application that need to plop some text of unknown direction into the/a
page."

{ Comments:  
Firstly, did you leave off the "s" on "application"? --  as the verb "need" is in the plural and I assume you mean "application" to be in the plural for agreement -- and of course the sentence makes more sense with "applications" as I don't think you mean just a single "web application" here.
Secondly, you have not mentioned "the page" at all before, so perhaps "page" should not be definite -- as you have not quite defined it; the first mention of something (in written text where you can't gesture at what you are talking about) is usually indefinite; so I changed "the" to "a" -- but that's up to you.

>=

"The dir=auto feature is designed for use in web applications that need to plop some text of unknown direction into a
page."

* * *

Paragraph 3

"The converse situation, when the data of unknown directionality needs to be
used for a user-visible attribute, is even more problematic: there is no way
to get the user agent to base the directionality of an attribute on its own
value."

{ COMMENT:  this whole paragraph is a bit "strange sounding," but I think the big problem is the phrase "used for" (which is vague and does not quite make sense here).
Since the data's directionality is unknown I assume the data is being inserted into a user-visible attribute from somewhere else, perhaps online, and that the original page author thus does not control its content but instead allows the user to do so.  }

=>
"The converse situation, when the data of unknown directionality is inserted into a user-visible attribute, is even more problematic: there is no way to get the user agent to base the directionality of an attribute on its ownvalue."

* * *

Paragraph 4

"This problem has been discussed on public-18n-bidi@w3.org, and we would like to
suggest a potential solution for all three problems (i.e. dir=auto having
unintended results on user-visible attribute values, no dir=auto for
user-visible attribute values, 3. and no way to declare the directionality of
user-visible attributes)."

{ Hmm -- you have a list of three items; the third is preceded by the number 3 but the others are not numbered!
Should not they all be numbered?
Also, for lists like this, semi-colons {;}, and not commas, are generally used to separate items.
Also, as you do not have a sentence end here, perhaps there should not be a full stop after the number three; it's better to punctuate this some other way.  }

=>

"This problem has been discussed on public-18n-bidi@w3.org, and we would like to
suggest a potential solution for all three problems (i.e. (1), dir=auto having
unintended results on user-visible attribute values; (2), no dir=auto for
user-visible attribute values; and (3), no way to declare the directionality of
user-visible attributes)."

* * *

(Hope I've interpreted paragraph 3 correctly; let me know.  Also, let me know if you want me to correct this at the bug report or not.)


Best,

--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com 



From: cewcathar@hotmail.com
To: matial@il.ibm.com; ntounsi@emi.ac.ma
CC: aharon@google.com; duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp; ehsan@mozilla.com; public-i18n-bidi@w3.org
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:10:41 -0500
Subject: RE: dir=auto makes no sense for descendant user-visible attributes







Hi.

To: ntounsi@emi.ac.ma
CC: aharon@google.com; duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp; ehsan@mozilla.com; public-i18n-bidi@w3.org
From: matial@il.ibm.com
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:47:34 +0200
Subject: Re: dir=auto makes no sense for descendant user-visible attributes

> Najib Tounsi wrote:

  >>* attribdir not specified

    >>  o There is an element, the closest ancestor or the
element itself,

    >>    who have an explicit, valid dir attribute with
a value other

    >>    than "auto" ("rtl | ltr").
attribdir have this same value.

> <end of quote>



> This may be what Aharon meant, but this is not what I have in mind. For
me, an explicit specification of dir="auto" on the element itself
> or on the closest ancestor having an explicit dir specification should
have the same effect as setting attribsdir to "auto".

I think this is fine (but I don't use bidi all that much).  
I will check the wording of the bug later today myself to make sure I understand it all; sorry I have not done so soooner.

> Shalom (Regards),  Mati
>     Bidi Architect

 >     Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional
Scripts

 >      IBM Israel

       Mobile: +972 52 2554160









> From:      
 Najib Tounsi <ntounsi@emi.ac.ma>

> To:      
 "Aharon (Vladimir)
Lanin" <aharon@google.com>

> Cc:      
 Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL,
"Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Ehsan Akhgari
<ehsan@mozilla.com>, public-i18n-bidi@w3.org

> Date:      
 28/02/2012 22:05

> Subject:    
   Re: dir=auto
makes no sense for descendant user-visible attributes



>>




>> Trying  to summarize ( the idea not the wording...).
According to my

current understanding.



>> We need a way to specify the directionality of attributes when it must
>> differ from that of the element itself
Thanks Najib for summarizing this.
(Hmm, in English at least, I'd prefer to the pronouns with the original nouns here because the plural "attributes" and singular "directionality" can be confusing:
"We need a way to specify the directionality of attributes when their directionality must

differ from the directionality of the element itself."
But this is not an important correction.)  
>> (Use cases needed to support the

>> proposal). One can make usage of LRE/RLE - PDF, but not very "user
>> friendly"...



>> A new attribute, attribsdir="ltr|rtl|auto", is proposed which
would

>> determine the directionality in which the element's user-visible

>> attributes must be displayed. A very important part of this would be the

>> default value.



>> So



 >> * attribdir = ltr", the element's attributes must be displayed
to the

    user with directionality of LTR

 >> * attribdir = rtl", the element's attributes must be displayed
to the

    user with directionality of RTL

 >> * attribdir = "auto", the direction is computed independently
for each

    element's attribute.

 >> * attribdir not specified

   >>   o There is an element, the closest ancestor or the
element itself,

        who have an explicit, valid dir attribute with
a value other

        than "auto" ("rtl | ltr").
attribdir have this same value.

   >>   o There is no such element. The element's attributes
must be

        displayed to the user with directionality of
LTR (HTML default

        directionality)

ME] I am only unsure about this last case, defaulting to left-to-right, but like I said I don't use bidi that much.
Best,

--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com 

 >> * what else...





>> Right?



>> Najib



>> . . . 



>> Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin wrote:

>>> Please note that I did not include the "bell or whistle"
of the 

>>> <input> / <textarea> exception.

>>>

>>> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin 

>>> <aharon@google.com <mailto:aharon@google.com>>
wrote:

>>>



>> -- 

>> Najib TOUNSI (tounsi at w3.org)

>> W3C Office in Morocco (http://www.w3c.org.ma/)

>> Ecole Mohammadia d'Ingénieurs, BP. 765 Agdal-RABAT Morocco

>> Mobile: +212 (0) 661 22 00 30