- From: Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin <aharon@google.com>
- Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:34:06 +0200
- To: Ehsan Akhgari <ehsan@mozilla.com>
- Cc: public-i18n-bidi@w3.org, Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
- Message-ID: <CA+FsOYY5jCK70KCBPWByaTE9FLxPcEuq-Pvov7eDssh7T0YOsw@mail.gmail.com>
Ok, let's see if anyone else responds. On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Ehsan Akhgari <ehsan@mozilla.com> wrote: > I'm fine with attribsdir as you proposed, although I'm not quite sure > about the more complex syntax, since it's so different to the way other > attributes in HTML work. > > Let's hear what others think. > > Cheers, > -- > Ehsan > <http://ehsanakhgari.org/> > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:53 PM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin < > aharon@google.com> wrote: > >> Good example. >> >> In the past, Ian has already rejected titledir etc. >> >> Perhaps they will be more receptive to attribsdir, since it's just one >> attribute and tackles some serious problems. >> >> Your example could be handled by also allowing syntax like >> "title:rtl;placeholder:ltr". Even just " placeholder:ltr" could do if the >> other attributes then follow the default (which in this case would >> presumably be rtl despite dir=ltr on the <input>). Since it does not >> inherit, there would not be too much difficulty supporting the complex >> syntax. >> >> But attribsdir would still be useful even if it only allowed a simple >> value. >> >> Aharon >> On Feb 23, 2012 6:11 PM, "Ehsan Akhgari" <ehsan@mozilla.com> wrote: >> >>> How about something like: >>> >>> <input name="phone" title="TELEPHONE" placeholder="(123) 456-7890"> >>> >>> If we introduce an attribsdir attribute, I can see people asking to >>> differentiate between different attributes, such as the example above. >>> From a bidi perspective, the ultimate solution is to have a directional >>> attribute for every user visible attribute, such as titledir, >>> placeholderdir, etc. But honestly I don't expect such a proposal to be >>> easily accepted in WHATWG, given the recent resistance towards >>> placeholderdir. >>> >>> -- >>> Ehsan >>> <http://ehsanakhgari.org/> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 6:49 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin < >>> aharon@google.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, I, for one, am not so happy with my proposal :-). >>>> >>>> Its solution is to apply dir=auto to the individual user-visible >>>> attributes, even though in most cases the values of such attributes are not >>>> dynamic, but localized to the page locale, e.g. (in an English page) <input >>>> dir="auto" name="purpose" placeholder="The purpose of your visit.">. Using >>>> estimation for them is not just wasteful, but bound to reach the wrong >>>> conclusion occasionally. >>>> >>>> And it does not address the long-standing issue of no way to set the >>>> directionality of an attribute (other than using formatting >>>> characters). The canonical examples are: >>>> >>>> - <input dir="ltr" name="telephone" title="PHONE NUMBER.">, which has >>>> to be worked around as <span title="PHONE NUMBER."><input dir="ltr" >>>> name="telephone"></span> >>>> - <input dir="ltr" name="telephone" placeholder="PHONE NUMBER.">, which >>>> has no workaround other than RLE + PDF. >>>> >>>> What if we could instead have a new attribute, >>>> attribsdir="ltr|rtl|auto", which would determine the directionality in >>>> which the element's user-visible attributes must be displayed. A very >>>> important part of this would be the default value. IMO, it would be best if >>>> it could default to the dir attribute value of the closest ancestor - or >>>> the element itself unless it is <input> or <textarea> - that has an >>>> explicit dir attribute with a value other than "auto". If there is no such >>>> ancestor, the default is "ltr". Thus: >>>> >>>> - the only way to get attribsdir=auto is to specify it explicitly >>>> - the explicit dir attribute value of <input> and <textarea>, which is >>>> presumably meant to correspond to the directionality of their content, not >>>> their user-visible attributes, does not affect their default attribsdir. >>>> - with the exceptions of <input dir="...">, <textarea dir="...">, and >>>> <whatever dir=auto>, the result is backward-compatible. >>>> >>>> Examples: >>>> >>>> 1. <html><body><div title="?">: ltr >>>> >>>> 2. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?">: rtl >>>> >>>> 3. <html><body><div dir=rtl title="?">: rtl >>>> >>>> 4. <html><body><div><div dir=rtl><div><div title="?">: rtl >>>> >>>> 5. <html dir=rtl><body><div><input dir=ltr title="?"> : rtl >>>> >>>> 6. <html><body><div dir=rtl><div dir="auto" title="?">hello</div>: rtl >>>> >>>> 7. <html><body><div dir=rtl><div dir="auto">ltr content<div title="?">: >>>> rtl >>>> >>>> 8. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?" attribsdir="ltr">: ltr >>>> >>>> 9. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?" attribsdir="auto">: auto >>>> >>>> Even if we couldn't get the <input> and <textarea> exception, we would >>>> still be ok - the page would just have to specify attribsdir explicitly on >>>> the problematic inputs. >>>> >>>> Aharon >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:32 AM, "Martin J. Dürst" < >>>> duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2012/02/23 1:11, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin< >>>>>> aharon@google.com >>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> One possibility is to divorce user-visible attributes from their >>>>>>> elements' >>>>>>> directionality completely, always estimating the directionality of >>>>>>> each >>>>>>> attribute by its content. This suffers from backwards compatibility >>>>>>> problems (since estimation is a heuristic that sometimes gives the >>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>> answer). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A better possibility is to divorce it only for elements under the >>>>>>> influence of dir=auto. Thus, if an element has dir=auto (explicitly >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> implicitly, the latter being the case for<bdi>), each of the >>>>>>> attributes in >>>>>>> the subrtree rooted at that element, with the exception of elements >>>>>>> specifying dir="ltr" or dir="rtl" and their descendants, must be >>>>>>> displayed >>>>>>> to the user as if they had a dir=auto of heir own. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I like the second proposal better. Although I have to say that it >>>>>> has been >>>>>> worded a bit vaguely. What I have in mind is for the title attribute >>>>>> in >>>>>> the following example to have a resolved RTL direction: >>>>>> >>>>>> <p dir="auto" title="RTL TEXT followed by ltr text">ltr text FOLLOWED >>>>>> BY >>>>>> RTL TEXT</p> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Ehsan that the second proposal is better. It's something >>>>> that comes quite naturally once one gets used to it. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, Martin. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >
Received on Sunday, 26 February 2012 07:34:57 UTC