Re: [Bug 10825] i18n comment 21 : location of user agent window's overall vertical scrollbar

> I noticed Hixie bouncing a fair number of things to CSS.  While that may
be
> appopriate to some extent, I think we should remind the HTML folks where
> necessary that the default behaviour of markup may need to be in the HTML
> spec for cases where CSS style sheets are not used – a prime example of
> this being the dir=rtl|ltr markup, where the HTML spec describes expected
> behaviour in terms of CSS, but it's in the HTML spec.

How does that jive with the following comment recently made by Hixie on one
of the bugs?

HTML explicitly doesn't define rendering except by reference to CSS,
which applies whether or not the browser actually implements CSS — the spec
says "User agents that use other presentation mechanisms can derive their
expected behavior by translating from the CSS rules", where "expected to" is
the normative equivalent of "must" in that section. So as far as I can tell
this is all already defined, and if it's not it's a CSS problem.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> wrote:

>  Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your contributions on the bidi HTML bugs.
>
>
>
> I agree that we should not lose these things.  We should probably also
> consider contacting browser implementers directly with some of this stuff,
> rather than just allow Hixie to be the gate-keeper.
>
>
>
> I am frustrated that other pressing work is preventing me from following
> all the bug discussions just at the moment, but I noticed Hixie bouncing a
> fair number of things to CSS.  While that may be appopriate to some extent,
> I think we should remind the HTML folks where necessary that the default
> behaviour of markup may need to be in the HTML spec for cases where CSS
> style sheets are not used – a prime example of this being the dir=rtl|ltr
> markup, where the HTML spec describes expected behaviour in terms of CSS,
> but it's in the HTML spec.
>
>
>
> By the way, my experience is that 'reject' is almost  a knee-jerk reaction
> from many of the people guarding the HTML5 gate.  We should be prepared to
> grit our teeth and stand our ground until we reach an acceptable level of
> mutual understanding.  Note, in particular, that Hixie's process is often to
> reject things he is not quickly convinced about, on the expectation that
> people will reopen the bug to press the case.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> RI
>
>
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://rishida.net/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* public-i18n-bidi-request@w3.org [mailto:
> public-i18n-bidi-request@w3.org] *On Behalf Of *Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin
> *Sent:* 06 October 2010 17:11
> *To:* Amit Aronovitch
> *Cc:* public-i18n-bidi@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bug 10825] i18n comment 21 : location of user agent
> window's overall vertical scrollbar
>
>
>
> I agree. The proposal itself is a (draft, for now) W3C Note, and that
> should count for something, but we should figure out in what other W3C
> documents such requirements should be mentioned.
>
>
>
> Regarding the scrollbars, I intend to get the requirement into the CSS
> spec.
>
>
>
> Aharon
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Amit Aronovitch <aronovitch@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I see that the editor is rejecting the proposals regarding UI issues
> (keyboard shortcut for direction-switching, location of the scrollbar,
> etc.).
>
> While this seems justified (after all, this is really out of scope for the
> HTML spec), I feel that these proposals should not be lost, and should be
> kept in a way that is likely to reach browser-developers.
>
> Perhaps an "implementation guidelines" page, or appendix, on the W3C site.
>
>
>
>    Amit A.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:48 AM, <bugzilla@jessica.w3.org> wrote:
>
> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10825
>
> Ian 'Hixie' Hickson <ian@hixie.ch> changed:
>
>           What    |Removed                     |Added
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             Status|NEW                         |RESOLVED
>                 CC|                            |ian@hixie.ch
>         Resolution|                            |WONTFIX
>
> --- Comment #1 from Ian 'Hixie' Hickson <ian@hixie.ch> 2010-10-05 00:48:11
> UTC ---
> EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are
> satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to
> CLOSED. If
> you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider,
> please
> reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML
> Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and
> suggest
> title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue
> yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document:
>   http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html
>
> Status: Rejected
> Change Description: no spec change
> Rationale: The HTML spec doesn't even require that there be a window in the
> first place, let alone a scroll bar. Plus, user interface decisions are
> explicitly left up to user agents since they represent
> quality-of-implementation issues and not interoperability issues. Thus,
> this is
> out of scope for HTML.
>
>
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