- From: <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:12:16 +0000
- To: public-i18n-arabic@w3.org
https://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html
text version follows:
Arabic Layout task force telecon
26 Jan 2016
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-irc
Attendees
Present
r12a, mostafa, amr, shervin, behnam, najib, waseem
Regrets
Chair
Behnam
Scribe
Shervin, Behnam
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Status review of action items
2. [5]Review of Github issues
3. [6]Drafting updates
4. [7]Persian transliteration for the glossary (Shervin)
* [8]Summary of Action Items
* [9]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
Status review of action items
<Behnam>
[10]https://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track
/actions/open?sort=owner
[10]
https://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/actions/open?sort=owner
Behnam: Opening the meeting. Status of action items.
Shervin: for ACTION-46, ETA is next week
Behnam: for ACTION-42, I checked the Github guide. Didn't see
anything missing. Had a pull request. We can close this aciton.
<Behnam> close action-42
<trackbot> Closed action-42.
<Behnam> ACTION-45: Write a paragraph to reference to the
arabic script chapter of the unicode standard
<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-45 Write a paragraph to
reference to the arabic script chapter of the unicode standard.
Behnam: For ACTION-45, htmltidy was used.
<Behnam> [11]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/pull/30
[11] https://github.com/w3c/alreq/pull/30
<Behnam> close action-45
<trackbot> Closed action-45.
Behnam: there are two short paragraphs. Task can be closed.
Please provide comments and feedback.
Bahnam: ACTION-23 is still in the works.
Mostafa: Working on ACTION-36. Changing the code for this.
<mostafa>
[12]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nxXVe7wgPtqekAXqMLn
NVJjmP8-XK_sgkCsrf3zxPp0/edit#gid=1033134929
[12]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nxXVe7wgPtqekAXqMLnNVJjmP8-XK_sgkCsrf3zxPp0/edit#gid=1033134929
Mostafa: some characters are mis-categorized.
... Persian Gaf is categorized as Arabic.
Shervin: This is because of the structure of auxiliary chars in
CLDR.
<mostafa>
[13]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uPrxdtedlodiabT4SjptfVq
umeHJCe8Pkl8eWXFiFJc/edit
[13]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uPrxdtedlodiabT4SjptfVqumeHJCe8Pkl8eWXFiFJc/edit
<najib> Gaf is a spoken Arabic letter but not a writing letter
in general.
Mostafa: We need to see how can we drop the aux chars for
tables.
Richard: Suggesting that the aux chars can have a bullet point
that they are aux. No need for extra column.
Shervin: ... Presentation has to be decided so we can keep them
in the charts.
Mostafa: We can try and see how would it work.
Najib: Should we add a column to distinguish the letters
written in Persian and Arabic.
Behnam: Unicode is encoding many characters under "ARABIC
LETTER".
... We need to document which are being used.
... By Unicode categorization, all are Arabic letters.
Najib: Line 56, 51, or others. Should we keep the letters as
they are?
... Discussion was to add a new column.
Behnam: Mostafa, any comments?
Mostafa: Aux chars are defined by CLDR. If there are other
special chars, we can discuss.
+1
Najib: I'm okay with that.
<Behnam> ScribeNick: Behnam
<Shervin> Mostafa: If there is any chars which we need to say
more about them, we can mark and talk about them.
<Shervin> Najib: Normal letters and others columns 49 and
above.
<Shervin> Mostafa: I'm working on producing new tables. I will
have something to show and get feedback.
<Shervin> Najib: Let's wait and see the results.
<Shervin> Shervin: We're gonna see the presentation of aux and
main.
<Shervin> Behnam: We don't get into linguistic. Typography
focus.
<Shervin> ... If the letter is used and needs to be supported,
should be added.
<Shervin> +1
<Shervin> Behnam: Closing the action? Keep it open?
<mostafa> [14]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/31
[14] https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/31
<Shervin> Mostafa: It's ongoing. There would be Github issues
for discussions.
<Shervin> Mostafa: ACTION-41, was finished last week. Kept open
for feedback.
<mostafa>
[15]https://docs.google.com/document/d/177yHWJ9WZLDyekFioxFPOrm
ycN-76ueXnQ2jrucxh3w/edit?usp=drive_web
[15]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/177yHWJ9WZLDyekFioxFPOrmycN-76ueXnQ2jrucxh3w/edit?usp=drive_web
<Shervin> Behnam: I haven't looked at it yet.
<mostafa> [16]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/28
https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/28
+1
<r12a>
[17]https://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-marku
p/uba-basics
[17]
https://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/uba-basics
<Shervin> Shervin: A summary of what's happening in UAX-9 might
be good.
<Shervin> Mostafa: A good idea. Can take a look at it.
<Shervin> Najib: Richard has good documents on this topic.
<Shervin> Behnam: I think Richard shared the link to that doc.
present?
<Shervin> Richard: Hard to summarize UAX9 easily, but we can
summarize briefly and point at the article above.
<Shervin> ... For people who are not experts per se.
<Shervin> ... Generally, a brief summary and pointing to this
document can be helpful.
present?
<Shervin> Najib: Richard's document doesn't talk about the
layout of the page. Different parts in rtl presentation.
<Shervin> ... columns, etc.
<Shervin> ... We should have that covered.
<Shervin> Shervin: Re: Layout. Not the topic of UAX9/UBA.
Layout would be covered some other place.
<mostafa> +1
<Shervin> Richard: Agreeing.
<Shervin> Najib: Agreeing.
<Shervin> Mostafa: I will work on the section to expand.
<Shervin> Richard: ACTION-4 is ongoing.
<Shervin> Najib: ACTION-7, finally finished the pull request
and waiting for feedback.
<Shervin> ... on Github.
<r12a> [18]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/pulls
[18] https://github.com/w3c/alreq/pulls
<Shervin> Richard: Don't see the PR.
<Shervin> Richard: Followed the document.
<Shervin> Behnam: Najib has a commit on his branch but no PR.
[19]https://github.com/ntounsi/alreq/commit/8faeabf7ad3c323b2b0
58c689e08aa0ef166ae56
[19]
https://github.com/ntounsi/alreq/commit/8faeabf7ad3c323b2b058c689e08aa0ef166ae56
<Shervin> Behnam: Submitted a PR to your own repo and not our
main repo.
<Shervin> ... Can help you with that.
<Shervin> +1
<Shervin> Behnam: After the meeting we can walk through the PR
to main repo.
<Shervin> Richard: If you spot anything which is wrong with the
doc, please do let me know.
<Shervin> Behnam: These were all the actions that we had.
HTML Tidy: [20]http://www.html-tidy.org/
[20] http://www.html-tidy.org/
Command used to normalize HTML code, specially indents and
line-breaks:
<Shervin> Behnam: Sharing htmltidy code...
$ tidy -q -i -m -w 100 --tidy-mark false index.html
<Shervin> Behnam: This is the command used to format the file.
<Shervin> Behnam: The latest version supports HTML5 and doesn't
throw warnings.
<Shervin> Behnam: We can keep tidying regularly if it's not
possible for everyone to do that by themselves.
<Shervin> Richard: If tidying changes things a lot, we should
keep them separate from other editorial/content changes.
<Shervin> ... easier to spot the diffs.
Review of Github issues
[21]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues
[21] https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues
<Shervin> Behnam: Picking up Github issues...
<Shervin> ... wanted to look at everything labeled "Drafting".
<Shervin>
[22]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+
label%3Adrafting
[22]
https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Adrafting
<Shervin> Behnam: Issue 29 is filed to address some of the
questions about lists.
<mostafa>
[23]https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues?utf8=✓&q=is%3Aissue+is%
3Aopen+label%3Adrafting+-label%3Afuture
[23] https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues?utf8=
<mostafa> Sorry for the link. My mistake.
<Shervin> Behnam: PR number 30. Talking about presentation
forms.
[24]http://www.w3c.org.ma/Tests/joiningColoredLetters.html
[24] http://www.w3c.org.ma/Tests/joiningColoredLetters.html
<Shervin> ... this topic came up multiple times on W3C mailing
list; there hasn't be any resolution on how to do that.
<Shervin> Najib: Wanted to have a discussion about this topic.
<Shervin> ... Would like to have opinion on this issue.
<Shervin> Behnam: The test page is good.
<r12a>
[25]http://www.w3c.org.ma/Tests/joiningColoredLetters.html
[25] http://www.w3c.org.ma/Tests/joiningColoredLetters.html
<Shervin> Richard: Looking at the test page...
<Shervin> ... It describe the situation when one wants to use
precomposed chars.
<Shervin> ... although it doesn't work in FF, FF needs to be
fixed.
<Shervin> ... Shouldn't change the data.
<Shervin> Behnam: A little more complicated than that.
<Shervin> ... FF looks like it's working. Chrome is broken.
<najib> I prefer firefox
<Shervin> ... Most implementation break Arabic joining around
these cases.
<Shervin> Richard: We should step back and ask what do we think
should happen.
<Shervin> ... in the doc, we should talk about what we expect
to happen.
<Shervin> ... in the document, there is no need to get into the
details.
<Shervin> ... The key thing is to say how should this work
rather than how does it work.
<Shervin> Behanm: Correct. Issue 4 is filed to cover this.
<Shervin> ... We don't need to use presentation forms for
these.
<Shervin> ... Special needs can be ZWJed.
<Shervin> ... either case we are polluting the data. Causing
issues with search.
<Shervin> Najib: The same discussion happened in i18n WG.
<Shervin> ... Software rarely support joining, the only way
around it is using pres forms.
<Shervin> ... No other solution with that software.
<Shervin> Behnam: That can be a case.
<mostafa>
[26]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/137j59fPt1nkl0h6O72S
R50SX3MHk0lWzmqcEaAmo1zM/edit#gid=0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/137j59fPt1nkl0h6O72SR50SX3MHk0lWzmqcEaAmo1zM/edit#gid=0
+1
<mostafa> +1
<Shervin> Shervin: We need to focus how the script works and
the software should follow. Not the other way around.
<Shervin> Najib: No particular opinion on this. A point of
discussion only.
<najib> Ok
<Shervin> Behanm: Issue 4 and 30 are related.
<Shervin> ... We have covered all the GH issues.
Drafting updates
<Shervin> Waseem: Interested to have some contribution to
section regarding numerals. Shall I draft something and share
with Khaled? Or share it with the group?
<Shervin> Behnam: Will contact Khaled regarding this.
<Shervin> Richard: Everyone can contribute.
[27]https://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track
/actions/37
[27]
https://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/actions/37
<Shervin> "Brief description of different sets of numerals and
their usage for Arabic and Persian languages."
<scribe> ACTION: Waseem to draft a section on numerals for
Arabic Script Overview [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html#action01]
[28] http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Draft a section on numerals for
arabic script overview [on Waseem Daoud - due 2016-02-02].
Persian transliteration for the glossary (Shervin)
<najib> Arabic transliteration is on going
<Shervin> Shervin: We don't have any transliteration for
Persian? Shall we not that column? ICU transliteration?
<Shervin> Behnam: Prefer not to do automatic.
<Shervin> ... Get higher quality translitation.
<najib> :-) good tool
[29]http://r12a.github.io/pickers/arabic/
[29] http://r12a.github.io/pickers/arabic/
<najib> [30]http://r12a.github.io/pickers/arabic/index.html
[30] http://r12a.github.io/pickers/arabic/index.html
<Shervin> Richard: Using Arabic picker tool, Najib generates
the draft transliteration.
<Shervin> ... A picker tool can be provided for Persian as
well.
<Shervin> Richard: It's mostly manual.
<Shervin> Behnam: One column with diacritics which can be used
to generate the transliteration.
<Shervin> Behnam: Is the code available?
<Shervin> Richard: JS file.
<Shervin> Shervin: We can do the scripting, but the diacritics
should be put in there.
<Shervin> Richard: Every entry we put in the glossary, we can
have it with diacritics.
<Shervin> ... Not displaying that ones with diacritics.
<Shervin> Behnam: Going to get an action item to get the
Persian picker to work.
<Shervin> ... we need to pick one standard and then work on the
picker.
<Shervin> Richard: It sounds good.
[31]http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_fa.htm
[31] http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_fa.htm
<Shervin> Shervin: Actually like Richard's proposition. The
problem is that we don't have the diacritics for existing
Persian.
[32]http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_fa.pdf
[32] http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_fa.pdf
<Shervin> ... LOC schema is odd and old for Persian. Prefer UN
schema.
[33]http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/docs/10th-uncsgn-
docs/econf/E_CONF.101_118_Rev.1_Transcription%20symbols%20for%2
0Persian_Updated.pdf
[33]
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/docs/10th-uncsgn-docs/econf/E_CONF.101_118_Rev.1_Transcription%20symbols%20for%20Persian_Updated.pdf
<Shervin> Richard: Picker is not using ICU format for
transforms. It's a regular expression based implemenation.
<Shervin> Behnam: UN schema looks better and closer to what
people use.
<Shervin> Richard: Will take a look at the UNGEN schema.
<Shervin> Behnam: We can keep the original with diacritics.
<scribe> ACTION: Behnam to work with Richard on the Persian
transliteration column in glossary [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
[34] http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Work with richard on the persian
transliteration column in glossary [on Behnam Esfahbod - due
2016-02-02].
<Shervin> Mostafa: If we find a book like a dictionary and
script to get diacritics out.
<mostafa> [35]http://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/کتاب
[35] http://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/
<Shervin> Shervin: Too much of a specific set of glossary
terms.
<Shervin> ... the existing sources might not have any
information.
<Shervin> Behnam: Will work on this and inform the rest.
<Shervin> Behnam: Closing the meeting.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to work with Richard on the Persian
transliteration column in glossary [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Waseem to draft a section on numerals for Arabic
Script Overview [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html#action01]
[36] http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html#action02
[37] http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html#action01
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
Received on Sunday, 31 January 2016 13:12:30 UTC