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{minutes}} HTML WG telecon 2012-09-06

From: Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:00:29 +0000
To: "public-html-wg-announce@w3.org" <public-html-wg-announce@w3.org>
Message-ID: <AB5704B0EEC35B4691114DC04366B37F16247A69@TK5EX14MBXC290.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
The minutes are recorded at http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html

Paul Cotton, Microsoft Canada

17 Eleanor Drive, Ottawa, Ontario K2E 6A3

Tel: (425) 705-9596 Fax: (425) 936-7329

HTML Weekly Teleconference
06 Sep 2012


See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-irc>


  *   Topics<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#agenda>
     *   Actions due today<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item01>
     *   New issues this week<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item02>
     *   Items closes last week<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item03>
     *   Items Closing this week<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item04>
     *   Items closing next week<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item05>
     *   New Calls this week<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item06>
     *   New surveys this week<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item07>
     *   Decisions this week<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item08>
     *   Other business<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item09>
     *   Chair and scribe for next meeting<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item10>
     *   Adjournement<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#item11>
  *   Summary of Action Items<http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html#ActionSummary>


<trackbot> Date: 06 September 2012

I think [Microsoft] has paulc, [Microsoft.a] has Jay and [Microsoft.aa] has Kris K

You have to wait for Zakim - a little slow at times

<scribe> scribenick: paulc
Actions due today

<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012JulSep/0025.html

No actions
New issues this week

No new issues
Items closes last week


<trackbot> ISSUE-131 -- Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient? -- closed

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131

Consensus to defer to future version of HTML

Split for ISSUE-74

The original bug will be marked for future processing


<plh> bug related to 131 could be 7011 or 7404


<trackbot> ISSUE-201 -- Provide canvas location and hit testing capability to fallback content -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201

<rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-201&oldid=13386

CfC closed on Aug 30

<gitbot> [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/20ab137355a21e4f6de2740ae997819f1b8f01ed

<gitbot> [html/master] revert addition of gopher as per https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18067 - Robin Berjon

We have consensus on the above proposal and waiting for Editors to apply it.


<trackbot> ISSUE-206 -- Should HTML5 have a meta generator exception to the alt requirement? -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/206

We have consensus on part of this ISSUE-206

<gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 3 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/15888f44778f...63289e0e25cd

<gitbot> [html/feature/whatwg] [e] (0) I don't really understand why this is an improvement, but in the interests of avoiding unnecessary forking... - ianh

<gitbot> [html/feature/whatwg] [e] (0) Provide a hook for other specs. - ianh

<gitbot> [html/feature/whatwg] [e] (0) Explain why gopher isn't on the list - ianh

Mike Smith: I have been trying to get consensus here

Mike smith: I am not planning to work further on this until next month.

Mike Smith: I wanted to sync up with others and cannot do that until next monght.

<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment on issue 206

Mike Smith: We have made positive progress to agree to drop metagenerator

Mike Smith: Coming up with an alternative is separate and harder to achieve.

PLH: Mike - are you saying you still want to solve this in HTML5.0? Or should we defer the alternative to HTML.Next?

Mike Smith: I am okay with deferring it but Henry might not agree.

Mike Smith: I was to be in sync with henry to ensure that validation services are in sync.

Maciej: Are Ted's proposal acceptable to Mike?

Mike: What is acceptable to me depends on what is acceptable to Henry.
... Henry and Mike came up with a very long attribute name and others did not like it.
... I am neutral about the attribute name but I want to wait until a talk to Henry.
... Not much to add - let's move on
Items Closing this week

No items closing this week
Items closing next week

No items closing next week
New Calls this week

No new calls this week
New surveys this week

No new surveys
Decisions this week

No new decisions
Other business


<trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30

Sam: Lots of discussion on the preceding TF meeting

Are there minutes available?

<rubys> http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-a11y-minutes.html

Mike: There was no agenda but the meeting did occur.
... Richard help this discusion about ISSUE-204. Several others participated in that discussion. M Cooper scribed that discussion well.
... Rich's points helped clarify some items for me on the call. Where the points of disagreement are and where the possible agreements might be.

Maciej: Could someone give a brief summary of the discussion?

Sam: I have excerpts ready and can comment on them.

Maciej: Sounds like a good plan.

<rubys> (11:24:43 AM) Stevef: i agree with mike that we should try to reach consensus without formal objection

<rubys> +1

<rubys> (11:35:28 AM) MichaelC: propose we say something like "in the future, user agents my have the ability to expose semantics of hidden descriptions" and encourage providing those semantics

<rubys> Please post suggestioned rewording into the bug report(s) themselves. If we converge to a small number of stable proposals quickly, I would support reopening issue 204 and proceeding directly to survey on those proposals.

Sam: If we can get the proposals out maybe re-opening the issue and going to survey on a small number of proposals.

Janina: I don't think we are that stage.

Judy: Text is still not enough.

Janina: And Rich S is on vacation for a couple of week.s

Sam: current text is not enough but maybe we can get a small number of stable proposals

<MikeSmith> plh means hober

<MikeSmith> oh

<MikeSmith> yeah

Philippe: Rich was reporting on the TF that he was talking to James. It would be useful for James and Ted to be in sync.

Ted: I agree and we continue to work the issue.

<rubys> (11:38:58 AM) MichaelC: it would be OK for HTML to have an attribute to solve this problem

<rubys> ... perhaps "LongdescZeroEdit" could be be updated to advocate a new "describedby" (sans "aria-") attribute?

Sam: someone proposed a specific HTML attribute

Janina: I suggested this in the TF meeting.
... Second proposal PF would be willing to mint a ARIA 1.1 (post ARIA 1.0) attribute for this functionality.

Judy: On the TF meeting there was also discussion about the suggestion to split out ARIA from HTML5, and clear opposition to that.

<hober> The PFWG charter: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/charter201006

<adrianba> PF has Requirements for ARIA 2.0 (Note) in the charter

<mjs> ARIA charter is here, for reference: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/charter201006

<Judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/charter201006#deliverables

The current charter says "Requirements for ARIA 2.0 (Note) "

janina: The current charter has us creating ARIA 1.0. The Requirements is being done.

Judy: There is discussiona about ARIA 1.1 ideas and some longer term features.
... PF is working on a charter extension which might include some ARIA 1.1 work.

Maciej: Is there a draft available of the ARIA,Next requirements?

Janina: There are tracker items but no actual document.

<rubys> (11:42:40 AM) MichaelC: plh: it's clear that people here don't want to remove ARIA from HTML

<rubys> Agreed. The harder question is: can we get people who actively want to make ARIA in HTML to work to provide proposals that they can live with? Not providing a proposal and objecting to all is not a path forward. I'm pleased to see that people have resumed providing suggestions in the form of comments on the existing bugs.

<Judy> s/There is discussiona about ARIA 1.1 ideas and some longer term features./ARIA 2.0 requirements discussion has also identified potential nearer-term ARIA 1.1 features.//

Judy: In terms of where the discussion happens on ISSUE-204 soltuion, that is part of the Formal Objection.
... The discussion needs to be happening in close cooperations with the WAI TF.

Sam: Not a problem but the conclusions from any WAI TF discussions they should coome back to the HTML WG

Philippe: Could some one give a ptr to the WAI PF Tracker?

Judy: It would be clearer in a few weeks since they are working on separating out ARIA 1.1 and ARIA 2.0; and my understanding is that PFWG will be interested in feedback and input on the 1.1 list..
... PF is interested in HTML WG feedback.

janina: I don't have the URI available.
... The idea of the ARIA 1.1 items is to handle items quickly and to handle items related to HTML discussion.
... This might be available in 3-4 weeks.

Judy: I was on the queue to point the problems with pulling out ARIA from HTML5.
... There is on list and off list discussion.
... People are reacting to the proposal.

Sam: But now people are actually discussing the technical matters in ISSUE-204

Judy: The FO contains both technical and procedural objections.
... Solving only the technical problems may not be enough.
... The technical discussion need to happen on the ARIA TF.

<mjs> I just want to note for the record in the minutes that Judy said it's not her or Janina's preferred outcome to make progress on resolving the Formal Objection

Janina: The procedural issues are not about ARIA. 149 without problems and 1 with problems.
... There has not been a proble overwhelmingly but there is one that is a problem.

Sam: Janina: The other 149 were done correctly?

Judy: I think Janina is saying that the outcome was okay.
... What is the agenda item?

Sam: Issue-30 is the agenda item.
... It is appropriate to discuss the Formal objection since it is blocking ISSUE-30.

<MikeSmith> fww, I agree with Sam that that the discussion here has been useful

<Judy> jb: it sounds are though you are actually discussing the FO itself, which is both procedural and technical, and which I don't think is appropriate to discuss here.

<Judy> ...this is not to say that technical progress is not useful, but that this is not the full context of the FO.

Paul: the chairs put the split out ARIA forward since we are under tremendous pressure to unblock ISSUE-30
... the proposal has got some people talking and working on at leat the technical part of ISSUE-204

Janina: Paul - thanks for your opinion.
... The TF thinks this would only delay HTML5 further.

Paul: Why would you think it will delay?

Janina: PF would make an objection about this.

Judy: If the Chairs intent to make A11Y optional in HTML5 ...
... If the Charis want to unravel all the work already done and cause less A11Y then you would been sendint that message
... Under the pressure the Chairs feel losing the work done (for both groups) would be a loss

Sam: It is not our choice to make A11y optional but we are trying to figure out to make our schedule pressure
... Anyone else?

No one.

<scribe> New editor: Robin Berjon

Judy: There needs to additional followup on the list clarifying problems with splitting out ARIA..

<rubys> I note that Judy said that she will follow up on list

Sam: Welcome to Robin to role as new HTML5 editor.

<rubys> http://www.w3.org/QA/2012/09/the_flowing_standard.html

Sam: Robin has posted a blog entry on the QA blog.
... this has got some attention.


any other business?

Chair and scribe for next meeting

Kris: Do you want a testing TF report?

Sam: We will do the TF reports next week.

Scribe for next week: Ted volunteered for next week.

We adjourned at :56 meetings after the hour.

rssagent, generate mintues

Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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Received on Thursday, 6 September 2012 17:01:08 UTC

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