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Re: 臺灣和香港Big5 HKSCS vs UAO分析和結論

From: Yuan Chao <yuanchao@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:26:07 +0800
Message-ID: <CAADKi7k-ygPGnRxMeDP--Uy5COXmafhw0FiuxNdFwtAEKN6thA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Philip Jägenstedt <philipj@opera.com>
Cc: "Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>, Chinese HTML Interest Group <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Philip Jägenstedt <philipj@opera.com> wrote:

>>>>>  • 298 pages with mixed/broken encodings
>>>>>  • 190 pages that would yield U+FFFD with HKSCS, but instead produces
>>>>> bogus Chinese characters using UAO, some of them user-visible:
>> Phillip, which OS are you using? To me, they are all visible as
>> squares with code
>> ID in it with HKSCS under Ubuntu!

> Ubuntu. For testing user-visibility I was using Firefox's Big5. The best
> existing approximation of the suggested Big5-HKSCS is Opera's, it's possible
Unlike ISO-2022-JP which has a very clear states definition, Big5 has
no error handling at all. (Just recall that Kenny was asking about
this about a year ago on this ML.) A visible character is very useful
instead of a fullwidth space, which just hides things away.

> that other browsers map these things to something other than U+FFFD. I've
> also noticed that the rendering of U+FFFD appears to be different in
> different fonts, in particular some Chinese fonts just renders it as a
> fullwidth space, at least in Opera.

>>> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:05:22 +0200, Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu

>>>> 提供一點考古方向:有些的編碼看起來是 big5-2003[1]、、、、、囧
>>>> 6. http://domestic.mytour.com.tw/list.asp?id=721
>>>> hkscs: 不捨結束此行精采假期、踏上歸途<U+FFFD �>視情況休息<br>18:30~
>>>> uao:   不捨結束此行精采假期、踏上歸途<U+8FF3 迳>視情況休息<br>18:30~
>>>> 84B3 在 big5-2003 是 U+F0E0(PUA),在 Windows 上看起來是 U+2192(→
>>>> RIGHTWARDS ARROW),但是兩個字形(glyph)並不一樣。
>>> 有可能,不過<U+3001 IDEOGRAPHIC COMMA 、>或者<U+FF0C FULLWIDTH COMMA ,>好像更好。
>> I would tend to "→" here. (as supply info, we don't use comma as
>> parentheses)

> It's mostly <http://www.wintan.com.tw/service_06_08.htm> that made me think
> that this must be 、 but maybe → can make sense there as well?
Oh. For this example, it's even more obvious that "→" makes sense.
It tells you to look in to the menu bar for [證券帳務] menu item and
*then* click on [庫存查詢] sub-menu. A "、" makes no sense at all!

>>>>>    • http://www.goprint.com.tw/draw.asp (妇)
>>>> 「妇」83FC → U+F08C(PUA)→ U+2776(❶ DINGBAT NEGATIVE CIRCLED DIGIT >>> 不太合適,大概是亂碼。
>> Actually Google say it's correct!
>> https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q="繪圖軟體教學" "photoshop基礎教學"
>> =>繪圖軟體教學—Photoshop實作教學(一)
> Huh, OK.
It's a key info here to have "❶" for (一).

> All in all, it seems to like most of the examples are redundant bullet
> points, typos and never very important. U+FFFD rendered as a fullwidth space
> seems like it wouldn't really lose any important information.
Several examples above shows meaningful info to me. We need a more
careful head count here. A fullwidth space simply loses important

>>>> 我不知道該說什麼才好了,感覺為 Big5-UAO 把 big5-2003 的東西加回去一些可
>>>> 以解決很大部份,另外,上面這些字都不是日文漢字,所以也不影響我對 Big5-
I tend to agree with Kenny's view here.

>>>> UAO 的要求 :p,有人知道這部份的編碼對應是在可以動手術的範圍還是不行?

>>> 按照上面的,用Big5-2003並不是很完美的。MozTW的映射好像不是完全可靠,所以我不知道該根據什麼去定義Big5-UAO。
>>> 問題的範圍畢竟是0.043%的臺灣網頁的幾個字符。現代的瀏覽器只有Firefox能顯示,而且他們的映射還造成別的問題……
Unfortunately it cause some problem for non-native Chinese readers. :)

>>> 在這種情況下,我覺得嘗試跟受影響的網站聯繫還是有希望。反正這是唯一的辦法能夠讓香港和國際的用戶也看得到。
>> I don't know... to me the original thought of big5-hkscs doesn't seem
>> to dominate, and looks
>> like big5-uao is not dominate either according to "bing".

> I'm not sure what you mean here. HKSCS is dominant in Hong Kong and UAO is
> dominant in Taiwan. The difference is just that using HKSCS fixes a lot more
> Hong Kong sites than UAO fixes
I look up the market share on browser in HK: it's ~50% for IE, ~23%
for Chrome, ~18% for Firefox (even much higher than Taiwan) and ~10%
for Safari.

Maybe this is the reason:
A simple option for the browser to "not switch to big5 if big5hkscs is
selected" will do and it's a tunable option for Firefox. Maybe Opera
can implement this to gain some share? ;) (Opera's share is ~0.4% in
Taiwan and invisible in HK. ) This would make much more sense to me
than eliminating other big5 variants than big5hkscs.


> If there are popular/important sites using Big5-UAO, I would really
> recommend asking them to either escape conflicting code points as &#1234; or
> to use UTF-8. That would fix the problem for all browsers immediately,
> instead of fixing it only for Taiwan-locale browsers in a few years.
I don't think either is practical.
The same argument applies to HK sites too, right? Why don't HK sites
move to use UTF-8 as their government ask them to? Sites with the
abilities and visions have moved to UTF-8 already. While the remaining
ones have either difficulties or simple just don't want to do this.
Popular/important sites would be even less willing to as they have so
many users and legacies already.

Unlike HK, Taiwan government has very loose control here and the big5
(a de facto) standard is the best example. The choice in Firefox is
based on the community discussion which would be different to other
browsers' business model. I personally don't stand for either. Just
express my personally needs and try to help with pointing some

To me, big5hkscs is an abandoned standard by HK government. Leaving
the difficulties and conflicts in big5/big5hkscs would be on purpose
to make people to switch to unicode. (I guess) The best solution to
the original problem you rose would be to implement an option of "not
switch to big5 if big5hkscs is selected even the site declares 'big5'

Best regards,
Yuan Chao
Received on Saturday, 21 April 2012 14:27:00 UTC

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