Minutes: HTML A11Y TF Teleconference, 10 JUL 2014


The minutes for the HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 10 July 2014
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      [1] http://www.w3.org/

              HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

10 Jul 2014

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/07/10-html-a11y-irc


          John_Foliot, Janina, Paul_Cotton, John_Foliot,
          Mark_Sadecki, Cynthia_Shelley, Judy, Brewer, Plh, Shane,

          adrian roselli


          MarkS, JB


     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Longdesc
         2. [5]Announcement from Mark Sadecki
         3. [6]Media
         4. [7]HTML5.1 (menus from Cynthia Shelley)
     * [8]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 10 July 2014

   <janina_> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference

   <MarkS> scribe: MarkS


   JS: Status update, we are waiting for some content from chaals.
   We are going through the objection we received from Ted
   O'Connor that we may treat as a formal objection
   ... I might be able to take on some of the work since Chaals is
   still going through rehabilitation for his knee
   ... Mark can you help

   MS: YEs Janina, I can help.

   JS: John, you can help with the research part. Anyone can
   actually. we will go through the list of concerns raised by Ted
   and list when the TF has reached consensus on those concerns.
   ... we believe these are all old concerns
   ... we want to put that kind of response together
   ... John, i know you have a lot of historical knowledge here as

   JF: Its a question of when you need it. I will be heading up to
   San Jose for Open Web Camp. Will be unavailable until Monday.

   JS: we can touch base on the Media call on Monday
   ... apologies to Paul for not getting a response on his
   question RE the CfC in the TF

Announcement from Mark Sadecki

   <Judy> scribe: JB

   MS: wanted to let people know that after careful deliberation I
   have decided to accept a position at the e-learning startup edX
   here in Cambridge, and will no longer be continuing in my role
   as Staff Contact for the task force.
   ...will still be working on accessibility in a field I have pst
   experience in; I'm very excited, but regret having to leave my
   position here;
   ...hoping to continue my involvement here at W3C and have
   starting conversations with new employer on that

   JS: very sorry to hear the news but wish you well in the new
   work, and appreciate the help you've given here. appreciate the
   approach you've used here that has helped the enviroment of the

   MS: have very much enjoyed working with everyone here and have
   made great friendships and relationships that I hope to

   <Judy> scribe: Mark

   JB: It's been great having you in this role, Mark. You've done
   great work in the TF, but also mapping out accessibility issues
   in other parts of the Open Web Platform.
   ... mixed feeling here as well. Hope you can find some way to
   remain involved. Good to have someone working on accessibility
   at edX
   ... because this role is so critical to accessibility in HTML,
   we have been carefully considering next steps.
   ... W3C management is aware of the critical nature of this role
   and is looking at interim solutions to maintain the momentum of
   this group
   ... including the active sub groups
   ... and new canvas task force
   ... we will have more details very soon.
   ... if any questions, please email me

   PLH: thank you mark, still trying to figure how to prevent you
   from leaving, locking your door perhaps
   ... hope this work can continue since it is of so much

   JS: and we hope that you can maintain involvement after
   switching roles

   JF: don't be a stranger, dude!

   CS: +1

   <paulc> +10 from the HTML WG Chairs on Mark's contributions to
   the A11Y TF and the Canvas work

   SM: I've been involved with W3C for many years and you've been
   one of the best team contacts I've ever worked with.

   JS: You've made great progress on Canvas for sure.


   JB: We have some ideas for who can take over convening the
   Media Sub Group

   JS: we are moving expeditiously to publish a heartbeat draft.
   Incorporating accepted revisions.
   ... still hoping to get this done by next week
   ... do we need to run a CfC in the TF to publish this HB

   JB: given that the media sub group is a sub group of the TF,
   they do not have publishing capabilities. That particular
   deliverable is simply under PF, so we would want to follow the
   PF process.
   ... Janina, as the liaison to PF has the ability to do that
   ... I don't remember this document coming through the TF in
   some time, so perhaps there are others who would like a chance
   to review

   JS: sounds like it would be prudent to run it through the TF
   and PF.
   ... which means we will need a new Team contact to publish the
   ... HTML is not running CfC's on HBs

   JB: don't want to cause confusion about how the TF handles such

   <paulc> Can we have a link to the candidate document?

   <paulc> I was dropped off the phone for 2-3 mins.


      [9] https://rawgit.com/w3c/pfwg/master/media-accessibility-reqs/index.html

   the above is a link to an editors draft which is still in flux

   a candidate document should be available early next week


   JS: no bug triage meeting, lack of quorum. no urgent bugs to

HTML5.1 (menus from Cynthia Shelley)


     [10] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist

   JS: date UI discussion would benefit from Chaals who is doing
   work in WebApps

   CS: Most of the menus that are out there right now, are
   hybrids. design pattern called a mega-menu. usually tabbed,
   each tab has things that look like headings but are not
   ... quite a few menus that are more like dialogs than menus, or
   are a hybrid


     [11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Jul/0023.html

   CS: mega menus, with examples are in the email. Interestingly,
   its not a menu. they usually contain aria menu markup, which is
   not correct
   ... menu footers, similar
   ... facebook notification center. toolbar (of sorts) menus,
   buttons, links, drop downs. some are links, some are
   combinations of links and menus
   ... news.google.com, upper right, account name. hybrid, acts
   like a dialog, looks like a menu.
   ... what designers think of as a menu are not like a menu.
   sometimes you can click in one place to activate, the amazon
   your account drop down is a good example of this.
   ... two columns, ability to add to cart
   ... menus are not at all like traditional OS menus. And aria
   may not be able to solve all of these uses.
   ... designers still call them menus
   ... there are traditional menus. outlook.com, gmail, have
   traditional menus
   ... context menus, i.e. settings
   ... aria menu markup doesn't quite meet the need
   ... what is currently in html5.1 is not as far off as I
   remember. there has been work done.
   ... aria menus, the markup is fine for trad. menus, but for
   hybrid menus, it would be tricky. would need techniques and or
   more roles
   ... aria is clear, but building a script based menu is hard.
   considering different input modes, speech, touch, etc
   ... hover doesn't work with touch
   ... i would like to see menus back in 5.1 what we need is more
   than just a file edit menu
   ... lots of links in the email I sent. Love to hear feedback.

   JF: seems to be that the fundamental problem is the difference
   between real menus and theys hybrid constructs
   ... perhpas we need a super class of navigation roles

   CS: a lot of these have links, buttons, graphics, objects with
   multiple ui things, etc. mini dialogs

   JF: sometimes they have two events attached to the same link

   CS: designers don't see a difference between links and buttons.
   they are the same things. they are all things that do stuff

   JF: interaction triggers

   JS: what we want to address is having sufficient tools and
   techniques to accomplish these
   ... don't think we can fully do this from the accessibility
   perspective. what is the interest of the HTML WG in taking this

   PC: Don't know

   JS: once HTML adds specificity, we would need to look at
   support from an accessibility perspective
   ... next step is finding out the wider interest in taking on
   something like this.

   CS: anyone know devs at chrome?

   MS: I can contact dominic

   CS: can talk to david bolter
   ... some of these are accessible, once you figure them out,
   just an awkward UE

   SM: sounds like we have a today problem. can we do WCAG
   techniques for these?

   CS: for some of these, perhaps.
   ... would need a collaborator to accomplish that
   ... not even sure what a screen reader would do with tab-panel
   ... most are styled links inside a div with a role of menu on
   ... so we need to figure out if HTML WG wants to do anything
   with this
   ... see if ARIA wants to do something with this, perhaps in 1.1
   ... and WCAG techniques

   JS: i think ARIA will not do anything if HTML doesn't want to
   be involved
   ... scope creep for 1.1

   CS: I can take an action to find out what HTML wants to do
   ... we can file an issue in ARIA
   ... someone needs to take an action to talk with WCAG

   JS: I think PF has a liaison, joshue perhaps. can bring it up
   with them

   JF: we can create the issue, but if we don't have a solution,
   might be fruitless exercise

   CS: we could definitely improve the situation with WCAG
   ... i can create Issues and Action manually
   ... Issue for ARIA for hybrid menus
   ... Action for cyns to find out who in HTML to discuss interest
   ... Issue for WCAG hybrid menu techniques
   ... Action for me to contact James Nurthen
   ... anyone think this is *not* an issue?

   JF: this is an issue

   SM: navigation is one of the biggest issues on the web today

   JS: navbar is one of the most frequent complaints I hear

   Thanks to Cynthia for a great presentation on ACTION-262

   JB: thanks to Paul for already providing comments on MAUR


   <Judy> ...and thanks to Mark for all his work on the TF.

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

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Received on Thursday, 10 July 2014 21:54:35 UTC