- From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
- Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 01:44:37 +0100
- To: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
- Cc: LeifW3C WAI-XTECH <wai-xtech@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Thanks, Janina. Comment sent using this form: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/comments/submit?document_version_id=18 But note that I do not, yet, see the comment online: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2012JanMar/ Leif H Silli Janina Sajka, Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:54:55 -0400: > Leif Halvard Silli writes: >> Where do we file bugs against ARIA? Is this the place: >> >> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=ARIA >> > Please look at: > > Instructions - PFWG Public Comments > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/comments/instructions > > Janina > > >> ? >> >> Leif H Silli >> >> Janina Sajka, Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:35:51 -0400: >>> Well, there's certainly no reason you need to accept my word on any of >>> this. File a bug if you think it's a bug. That's the responsible thing >>> to do, no? >>> >>> Janina >>> >>> Leif Halvard Silli writes: >>>> To look blindly at 'calculation' is also to miss a point: You have >>>> defined what an 'img' role is. You could have said that 'img' element >>>> might also have 'description links', but that you have not defined what >>>> a 'description links' precisely is and precisely how it is handled, in >>>> the current version of ARIA. >>>> >>>> Leif Halvard Silli >>>> >>>> Janina Sajka, Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:47:12 -0400: >>>>> You're missing my point. >>>>> >>>>> There's no calculation relating to longdesc because there's no need for >>>>> it. As I keep reminding everyone, ARIA-DescribedAT does not exist. >>>>> There's no need to define rules for what to use, because there's no >>>>> competing ARIA markup that serves the use case of HTML's longdesc. >>>>> >>>>> In the future, when we have an ARIA-DescribedAT, we will undoubtedly >>>>> need to say something here. But, that day has not dawned. >>>>> >>>>> Meanwhile, ARIA-LabeledBy, -DescribedBy, etc., etc., all figure in alt >>>>> text. For this there is indeed the need to consider precedence, which >>>>> our doc attempts to do at great detail--because this calculation is >>>>> important. >>>>> >>>>> PS: This should actually serve as further evidence that ARIA-DescribedBy >>>>> isn't about long text alternatives but rather about short text >>>>> alternatives, about that attribute known as "alt text" in html. >>>>> >>>>> Janina >>>>> >>>>> Leif Halvard Silli writes: >>>>>> Janina Sajka, Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:15:24 -0400: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> ARIA defines where @title and @alt fits in in ARIA: In the >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> name. But ARIA does not explain where the longdesc link - or if you >>>>>>>> wish: an image with a longdesc - fits in. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> So? >>>>>> [ snip ] >>>>>>>> However, while, ARIA expects AT to say 'image' if the element has >>>>>>>> role=img, and expects the accessible name to be presented as the >>>>>>>> content of the image, it does not explain when and where the mere >>>>>>>> presence of a longdesc should be conveyed to the user. ARIA is >>>>>>>> silent. >>>>>>>> And makes no implicit expectations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> No reason we should. You still haven't made the case that we are >>>>>>> obligated to do this, or that we have a reason to do it. >>>>>> >>>>>> That compelling reason, is found in the description of the img >>>>>> role: [1] >>>>>> >>>>>> "An img can contain captions and descriptive text, as well as >>>>>> multiple image files that when viewed together give the >>>>>> impression of a >>>>>> single image." >>>>>> >>>>>> Further more the characteristics section links to IMG in HTML4 and >>>>>> IMGGROUP in DTB. The later consist of one or more IMG, and each >>>>>> IMG may >>>>>> contain longdesc.] >>>>>> >>>>>> Hence, many in the readership of ARIA 1.0, will assume that 'img' here >>>>>> is linked to HTML, whose image element is named <img>. And thus, that >>>>>> 'img' is formulated after the model of <img>. And so I ask: Where is >>>>>> HTML4's @longdesc in that description? And where is it said that one >>>>>> might actually also find a description link inside an 'img'? The 'img' >>>>>> model of ARIA simply looks incomplete. [I had similar input >>>>>> during your >>>>>> last call too, but ...] >>>>>> >>>>>>> From the accessible name calculation section and from other places in >>>>>> ARIA 1.0, it is further clear that an role 'img' element, from an AT >>>>>> perspective, only contains 'author' provided content. Thus: No >>>>>> 'contents' content. [For other readers: 'Author' content refers to >>>>>> contend specified via attributes: alt, title, aria-label, >>>>>> aria-labbelledby, aria-describedby. The clue is that AT only presents >>>>>> to the user such content that is explicitly referred to - or contained >>>>>> - in the designated attributes. ] >>>>>> >>>>>> And so I ask: Is @longdesc 'author' provided content or 'contents'? It >>>>>> is clearly author provided - it contains a 'human inserted' URL. And >>>>>> so, from that perspective, it fits right into ARIA's model of 'img'. >>>>>> The only - somewhat dull - issue, is that @longdesc does not >>>>>> contain an >>>>>> author provided 'link text'. Only an author provided URL. It is an >>>>>> on/off thing: It is the author who adds it, or not. And then >>>>>> there is a >>>>>> standard presentation of that link. >>>>>> >>>>>> The description of the 'img' role, also says: >>>>>> >>>>>> "In order for elements with a role of img be perceivable, authors >>>>>> SHOULD provide alternative text or a label determined by the >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> name calculation." >>>>>> >>>>>> Which makes me ask: What about a link to a longer description for the >>>>>> image? SHOULD or MAY authors provide that? Do some images need - >>>>>> or not >>>>>> - a long, independent description in order to be perceivable? >>>>>> >>>>>> Apparently, the ARIA task force *did* think that one description links >>>>>> are sometimes needed, because one or two ARIA specs/guides tell/told >>>>>> how one can use @aria-describedBY plus an anchor element to do >>>>>> that ... >>>>>> However the very description of the 'img' role, does not mention it ... >>>>>> >>>>>>>> An image with longdesc indicates 'complex data image'. Hence, >>>>>>>> it seems >>>>>>>> logical with an early announcement about the presence the longdesc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Complex data? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it's a painting by Raphael. I >>>>>>> would not characterize a long description of a painting as data >>>>>>> structure. >>>>>> >>>>>> Right. I should have skipped 'data' and only said 'complex' - or said >>>>>> 'complex or data filled'. >>>>>> >>>>>> My main point here, was *early announcement*, so the user can >>>>>> choose to >>>>>> go for the long description instead of having to listen to the short - >>>>>> but possibly still long - alternative text. Longdesc is binary thing: >>>>>> Either it exist, or it doesn't. And so, its presence says something >>>>>> about the 'nature' of the element. That is why I likened to a sort of >>>>>> role. And something to be announced early. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I think it is correct to say that *the author* [remember: >>>>>> 'author' provided content] consider the 'img' to be complex. The >>>>>> author >>>>>> decides what the 'img' needs. May be the 'img' doesn't contain so much >>>>>> 'data'. But the author still considers that an independent description >>>>>> is warranted, in order to go deep enough into its complexity. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#img >>>>>> -- >>>>>> leif halvard silli >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 >>>>> sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net >>>>> >>>>> Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org >>>>> Linux Foundation http://a11y.org >>>>> >>>>> Chair, Protocols & Formats >>>>> Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/wai/pf >>>>> World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 >>> sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net >>> >>> Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org >>> Linux Foundation http://a11y.org >>> >>> Chair, Protocols & Formats >>> Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/wai/pf >>> World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) >>> >>> > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net > > Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org > Linux Foundation http://a11y.org > > Chair, Protocols & Formats > Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/wai/pf > World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) >
Received on Wednesday, 14 March 2012 00:45:10 UTC