Fwd: Review of ISSUE-164 change proposals - Part 1: Replace hgroup with the subline element

FYI

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: 6 August 2012 10:54
Subject: Re: Review of ISSUE-164 change proposals - Part 1: Replace hgroup
with the subline element
To: Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>
Cc: "public-html@w3.org" <public-html@w3.org>


Hi Paul,
I have updated the hgroup/subline proposal

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup

In reference to the last comment:


These Details are possibly inadequate.  If the first instruction is
> referring to just Section 4.4.7 The hgroup element<http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/single-page.html#the-hgroup-element>then it omits the other mentions to hgroup in the HTML5 specification.  In
> addition the second instruction to add the proposed subline<http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/subline.html>element omits any indication if subline should be added to any other
> sections in the document to replace the hgroup occurrences.
>

I have created a local copy of the HTML5 specification with all the 53
instances of the text 'hgroup' identified by prefixing "(remove or
replace)" If the change proposal is accepted, I can go through and work
with the editors on what spec changes should occur. Until that point it
seems like the work is unnecessary.


Any further feedback on the proposal is appreciated.

regards
SteveF

On 24 July 2012 19:57, Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com> wrote:

>  We have five change proposals for ISSUE-164:****
>
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-164****
>
> ** **
>
> The following is a Chairs review of the following change proposal: ****
>
> ** **
>
> Replace hgroup with the subline element ****
>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup ****
>
> ** **
>
> 1. Structure of change proposal****
>
> ** **
>
> The proposal includes an appropriate Summary, Rationale, Proposed Details
> and Impact. ****
>
> ** **
>
> 2. General comments on change proposal****
>
> ** **
>
> a) Rationale****
>
>    - real world examples <http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Hgroup_element>gathered on the whatwg wiki do not reflect a compelling pattern or need for
>    hgroup, but they do reflect the usefulness of an element that can be used
>    as an indication that its content is a subheading, subtitle, tagline and
>    byline. This can be shown by examples of subline use<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Hgroup>with the real world use cases provided.
>    ****
>
> Your assertion “do not reflect a compelling pattern or need for hgroup”
> needs to be better instantiated.  Some of this proof may be in your examples
> of subline use <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Hgroup> but your argument
> would be stronger if you included this material directly in your change
> proposal.****
>
> ** **
>
> >The hgroup element has not been generally well received by authors:****
>
> >Or by people involved in HTML5 specification development:****
>
> ** **
>
> You are making your rationale by reference here without outlining any of
> the arguments made by the referenced people or documents.  Your position
> would be much stronger if you summarized the major arguments made in each
> of your references directly in your Change Proposal.****
>
> ** **
>
> •  Or by implementors: in terms of its semantics and effect on the outline
> algorithm ****
>
>                            o  zero implementations ****
>
> ** **
>
> This statement conflicts directly with the statement in the zero change
> proposal: “<hgroup> support has been shipped in multiple browsers”.  See
> the Rationale in:****
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0031.html   Your
> change proposal would be stronger if you could provide concrete evidence to
> refute the position in the other change proposal.****
>
> ** **
>
> b) Details****
>
> ** **
>
> >Remove the hgroup element from HTML5****
>
> >Add the subline <http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/subline.html>element to HTML5
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> These Details are possibly inadequate.  If the first instruction is
> referring to just Section 4.4.7 The hgroup element<http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/single-page.html#the-hgroup-element>then it omits the other mentions to hgroup in the HTML5 specification.  In
> addition the second instruction to add the proposed subline<http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/subline.html>element omits any indication if subline should be added to any other
> sections in the document to replace the hgroup occurrences.****
>
> ** **
>
> Please let the Chairs know by Tue Jul 31 if you plan to revise your change
> proposal and when you can do the revision by.****
>
> ** **
>
> /paulc****
>
> HTML WG co-chair****
>
> ** **
>
> Paul Cotton, Microsoft Canada****
>
> 17 Eleanor Drive, Ottawa, Ontario K2E 6A3****
>
> Tel: (425) 705-9596 Fax: (425) 936-7329****
>
> ** **
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html





-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html