- From: John Foliot <jfoliot@stanford.edu>
- Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 16:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
- To: "'Silvia Pfeiffer'" <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
- Cc: "'HTML Accessibility Task Force'" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "'James Craig'" <jcraig@apple.com>, "'Michael Cooper'" <cooper@w3.org>, "'Jared Smith'" <jared@webaim.org>
Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: > > It is the recommended way for making content invisible at > http://webaim.org/techniques/css/invisiblecontent/ and if anyone > should know the best way it should be WebAIM IMO. I just followed > their recommendation and I think in this case it is appropriate. As it happens, Jared Smith is a long-time friend who, for a variety of reasons not relevant to this discussion is currently not able to participate directly in the HTML5 WG. However, I did manage to discuss this with him, and he helpfully responded with a fairly detailed email, provided in its entirety after this comment. Specific to this technique however, he wrote: "...regarding the off-screen content technique (http://webaim.org/techniques/css/invisiblecontent/) for aria-describedby elements. Here are several arguments against this as a recommended solution.: - While the aria-describedby content would be read when the <video> element that references it is accessed, it would ALSO be read in it's actual location within the page, thus introducing potential confusion for screen reader users reading later in the page. In other words, if I bypass the video (perhaps navigate by a heading), my screen reader may begin reading a description for an object that I am unaware of and for which there is no reverse programmatic association. While this is also an issue if the content is NOT hidden off-screen, such content would almost certainly be presented in proximity to or otherwise programmatically associated to the video itself (maybe within the same heading level or same <article>). This off-screen technique allows (and in some ways encourages) the long alternative to be presented anywhere within the page, thus allowing the alternative to be read to screen reader user twice and/or in isolation and without association to the video. - This may encourage the presentation of additional and verbose content for only one set of users - screen reader users. Much of this information would be best served if made available to all users (either visibly within the page or via a separate page), particularly those with cognitive or other disabilities. - This solution (nor any of the other presented solutions) allow for content that necessitates or would be better served on a separate page. Simply presenting a link within off-screen content is obviously not suitable. This would limit not only content access, but also functionality to only screen reader users. It would also violate the intention of aria-describedby (the video is not described by a anchor element, but by actual content). Something else (beyond @transcription) is necessary in this case - This technique relies on current, yet somewhat arbitrary user agent behavior. Nothing prescribes that screen readers should read off-screen content (no more so than they prescribe that they should ignore content with display:none). Additionally, this results in styling dictating content functionality - something that both HTML5 and CSS strive to avoid. For these reasons, an HTML5 technique that recommends or relies on such styling makes me quite uncomfortable. ********************** Jared's full response follows my sig. JF ********************** John, feel free to pass this on or quote as you'd like. I noticed that a WebAIM technique was referenced in the mailing list (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0291.html). I wish to provide some thoughts on this technique as well as some broader thoughts on media alternatives. The alternative to the video and the alternative to a poster frame will often not be the same. The editor opinion (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0690.html) was that "this does not happen in practice" and the dialogue of this thread generally indicates that video alt and poster alt are always the same and should not be treated differently. However, I think several cases have been presented that show this is not always the case. The proposed solutions themselves (http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Alt_Technologies) reference and describe these separately - strong evidence that they are distinct content items that must be described distinctly. The examples (both aria-label and aria-describedby) sometimes present alternatives for the <video>, sometimes alternatives for the poster frame (tellingly, the referenced elements have an id value of "posteralt"), and sometimes for both (not to mention the times they reference other stuff, such as metadata or control instructions). This would pose significant confusion for authors. I, as an accessibility 'expert', read the full threads and examined all of the examples and it still is not clear to me if the alternative being presented by each attribute should be for the video itself, for the poster frame, for the controls of the video, or something else? Or somehow all of them combined? The techniques that have been suggested (with the exception of off-screen text) seem to work splendidly for alternatives to the video. At first glance, it seems to me that <video alt> might be a suitable alternative to @aria-label for short alternatives. For AT and accessibility APIs, they would be presented and mapped identically. @aria-describedby would often be an appropriate method when longer, in-page alternatives are presented. But if video alt and poster alt are distinct things (as they clearly often are to me), providing descriptions of their content programmatically via a single attribute or referenced element (or even multiple elements) seems fundamentally wrong. If aria-describedby or aria-label is apply to the <video> element, they are, by definition, labels and descriptions for that element, not of some other characteristic, attribute, or state of that element. In many cases additional poster alt would not be necessary (usually in the case of random frames being presented and often in the case of first frame being presented). But in the cases where the alternative content for the poster alt is distinct, a distinct description mechanism is necessary - perhaps @posteralt (yes, this is structurally questionable, but no more so than <a hreflang> or <track srclang>, I suppose) for short alternatives or (optimally) a child <poster> (or similar) element for short and long description. I'm sure there are other solutions that don't convolute video alt and poster alt into one thing. I do like the idea of associating full media descriptions (e.g., transcripts) via @transcription (I'd prefer @transcript). Some wordsmithing on what should go on the @transcription page is necessary. Of note is that WCAG 2.0 never uses the word "transcript", but uses "alternative for time-based media" (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#alt-time-based-mediadef) as transcripts are generally considered to be verbatim text versions of audio content whereas WCAG requires additional descriptions where necessary. @description or @longdesc would really be more accurate here, though these introduce other types of confusion. Finally, regarding the off-screen content technique (http://webaim.org/techniques/css/invisiblecontent/) for aria-describedby elements. Here are several arguments against this as a recommended solution.: - While the aria-describedby content would be read when the <video> element that references it is accessed, it would ALSO be read in it's actual location within the page, thus introducing potential confusion for screen reader users reading later in the page. In other words, if I bypass the video (perhaps navigate by a heading), my screen reader may begin reading a description for an object that I am unaware of and for which there is no reverse programmatic association. While this is also an issue if the content is NOT hidden off-screen, such content would almost certainly be presented in proximity to or otherwise programmatically associated to the video itself (maybe within the same heading level or same <article>). This off-screen technique allows (and in some ways encourages) the long alternative to be presented anywhere within the page, thus allowing the alternative to be read to screen reader user twice and/or in isolation and without association to the video. - This may encourage the presentation of additional and verbose content for only one set of users - screen reader users. Much of this information would be best served if made available to all users (either visibly within the page or via a separate page), particularly those with cognitive or other disabilities. - This solution (nor any of the other presented solutions) allow for content that necessitates or would be better served on a separate page. Simply presenting a link within off-screen content is obviously not suitable. This would limit not only content access, but also functionality to only screen reader users. It would also violate the intention of aria-describedby (the video is not described by a anchor element, but by actual content). Something else (beyond @transcription) is necessary in this case - This technique relies on current, yet somewhat arbitrary user agent behavior. Nothing prescribes that screen readers should read off-screen content (no more so than they prescribe that they should ignore content with display:none). Additionally, this results in styling dictating content functionality - something that both HTML5 and CSS strive to avoid. For these reasons, an HTML5 technique that recommends or relies on such styling makes me quite uncomfortable. Jared Smith WebAIM.org
Received on Wednesday, 11 May 2011 23:40:48 UTC