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Minutes from Media Subteam for 1 June

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 19:18:01 -0400
To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20110601231801.GC6041@sonata.rednote.net>
Minutes from the 1 June teleconference meeting of the HTML-A11Y Task
Force Media Subteam are provided below as text and are available as
hypertext at:



                                                           - DRAFT -

                                                       HTML-A11Y telecon

01 Jun 2011

   See also: IRC log


          JF, silvia, mark, Janina, Eric




     * Topics
         1. Identify Scribe
         2. Clean Audio: Any progress?
         3. Paused Media: Is our approach acceptable to browsers?
         4. Hierarchical Navigation: Do we need a single approach?
         5. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
         6. Other Business?
     * Summary of Action Items

   <scribe> agenda: this

Identify Scribe

   <scribe> scribe: janina

Clean Audio: Any progress?

   JF: We were setting this aside until we can have a conversation with someone who has expertise in this area?

   js: Yes, I haven't done anything on this yet.

   jf: Perhaps also an email to Sean to ask whether he can find anyone who could talk with us?

   js: Yes, will do.

   <mark> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12544

   mw: Should we update the bug?

   sp: At least to say "clean audio"

   jf: Status is "open."

   mw: Yes, trackinds was added to spec, and we wanted additional kinds.

   js: Last week we thought we might have a specific use case to keep both "Speech" and "Clean Audio"

   sp: Suggest we at least fix the reference to "clear"

   mw: Should I add a comment re that?

and call it "clean"

   [general chorus of ascent]

   jf: Do we need to do anything else with the bug now?

   sp: If we need to add "speech," that will come back, it won't get lost.

Paused Media: Is our approach acceptable to browsers?

   <JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10693

   <JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12662

   jf: last uri another topic--sorry
   ... believe we're getting to a solution
   ... If I understand Steve Faulkner's email, the ml stripping from ARIA-Describedby is being done by browsers, so flat
   text is being passed to a11y apis
   ... So we lose the benefit of the ml

   sp: Can we work with the browsers to fix that?

   jf: Not sure what that means in terms of effort to implement. Is that a big ask?

   ec: Suggest writing up bugs against Safari, Mozilla, IE, Opera, etc
   ... Additional advantage that this would make things work now
   ... A new attrib would give us nothing.

   jf: So all browsers get bugs daily--Will this be taken up anytime soon? How can we follow up?

   ec: Impossible to say, but have the same situation for some other ml approach
   ... Except it's less work to fix the behavior of an existing ml feature

   jf: Just want to explore whether any of us can help elevate this forward so it doesn't languish

   ec: Anything associated with the HTML 5 spec has high visibility, and this is a smaller ask than asking for something
   entirely new

   jf: Eric, can you help me write a good bug on this?

   ec: Think it's pretty simple, that just says "Please expose the ML"

   sp: Need to make sure that the ARIA spec states this more clearly than it does now.

   js: I think we can clear this up quickly as an ARIA errata item.

   <scribe> ACTION: Janina to carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and that
   any such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-129 - Carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and
   that any such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-06-08].

   jf: Also, we may need to have two additional ARIA roles.
   ... Since we have ids pointing to parts of the Describedby string, we should be able to refer to those parts

   sp: Need a machine identifiable semantic--if needed, not sure[Discussion whether labeled would suffice]

   jf: Seems this is something for the ARIA group to take up.

Hierarchical Navigation: Do we need a single approach?

   sp: Haven't thought about this enough to have a solution yet.
   ... So, seems it's something we could handle with WebVTT
   ... Suggest only text tracks give us solutsion for jumping to particular offsets in media--it's the use case I'd like
   to discuss

   <JF> Silvia, can you hear us?

   jf: Think Silvia and Janina are saying the same thing,
   ... Think we need a time stamp format that's media agnostic
   ... this also applies to long form audio, an opera or a symphonic work
   ... Am I correct

   ec: I think Silvia is saying this is agnostic of text file format
   ... So it's up to the browser to expose in an agnostic way

   jf: Suggest that remembering audio as one of our use cases will help us develop how we describe this

   <JF> scribe-nick: JF

   <JF> Janina is demonstrating a Daisy player devise

   <JF> giving an audio demonstration

   <JF> goes to the Holy bible to load up navigation, and then navigates the structure

   <JF> describing the device controls

   <JF> book, chapter, phrase, bookmark, testament are all of the options she can navigate to

   mw: One question, Janina demonstrates DAISY book using Holy Bible ...

   Basic navigation is hierarchical

   js: But, do we need ansiliary structure support like DAISY did?

   sp; I think not, it's not in the imtline of the primary media resource

   jf: Just suggesting we make sure we don't need ...

   sp: Can support ansiliary with metadata

   jf: This raises an interesting point, are we also talking metadata, isn't nav metadata

   mw: It is, but it's info attached somehow to the timeline

 booknotes, footnotes, sidebars, hyperlinks can be captured in a metadata track

 they are an orthogonal problem to navigation markers

   mw: The advance tree view of the nav hierarchy is different from the ansiliary display metadata

   <JF> ARIA has this:

   <JF> tree

   <JF> A type of list that may contain sub-level nested groups that can be collapsed and expanded.

   <JF> treegrid

   <JF> A grid whose rows can be expanded and collapsed in the same manner as for a tree.

   <JF> treeitem

   sp: Think we're currently mixing two issues, jumping to a point, e.g. start chapter three

   <JF> An option item of a tree. This is an element within a tree that may be expanded or collapsed if it contains a
   sub-level group of treeitems.

   sp: As we're playing it, going to next or previous of my current hierarchical level, or to adjust the level before
   moving next previous
   ... the second is very dependent on where I am now

   <JF> +Q

   sp: It's the second I think we're not yet able on

   ec: Chapter gives us flat nav, but does not support hierarchical, or nontext labeling (audio, video, image)

   mw: I've seen DVD's where Chapters are labeled with snipets of video

   <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-chapters <- chapter track in html

   ec: Could be done with metadata

   sp: metadata tracks?\

   <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#text-track-showing-by-default <- chapter navigation is
   already in the spec

   jf: Suggests that the intended use of HTML headings--the old <h1>, <h2>, etc, may be our solution
   ... Perhaps a text file, adding <li>, and ARIA-tree

   <mark> Comment above beginning 'Chapter gives us ...' was mw, not ec

   ec: Unless we want to invent another spec just for this, we need only to define a structure at a high level that
   becomes a requirement on the text file format
   ... That will mean two different ways, if both webvtt and ttml are supported, because both can do that

   <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#texttrackcuelist

   sp: Not concerned so much about the ml as about the mechanism in HTML
   ... Propose I mock up some markup, both WebVTT and TTML, that takes us to HTML

   <JF> +1 to no limits

   <JF> <h1>My video</h1>

   <JF> <h2 cue="">The Beginning</h2>

   <JF> <ul>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>

   <JF> </ul>

   <JF> <h2 cue="">The Middle</h2>

   <JF> <ul>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>

   <JF> </ul>

   <JF> <h2 cue="">The End</h2>

   <JF> <ul>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>

   <JF> </ul>

Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

Other Business?

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Janina to carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and that any
   such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]

Present: JF silvia mark Janina Eric
People with action items: janina


Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200

Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org

Chair, Protocols & Formats
Web Accessibility Initiative	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
Received on Wednesday, 1 June 2011 23:18:25 UTC

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