Minutes from Media Subteam for 1 June

Minutes from the 1 June teleconference meeting of the HTML-A11Y Task
Force Media Subteam are provided below as text and are available as
hypertext at:

http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-html-a11y-minutes.html

   W3C

                                                           - DRAFT -

                                                       HTML-A11Y telecon

01 Jun 2011

   See also: IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          JF, silvia, mark, Janina, Eric

   Regrets
   Chair
          John_Foliot

   Scribe
          janina

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Identify Scribe
         2. Clean Audio: Any progress?
         3. Paused Media: Is our approach acceptable to browsers?
         4. Hierarchical Navigation: Do we need a single approach?
         5. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
         6. Other Business?
     * Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

   <scribe> agenda: this

Identify Scribe

   <scribe> scribe: janina

Clean Audio: Any progress?

   JF: We were setting this aside until we can have a conversation with someone who has expertise in this area?

   js: Yes, I haven't done anything on this yet.

   jf: Perhaps also an email to Sean to ask whether he can find anyone who could talk with us?

   js: Yes, will do.

   <mark> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12544

   mw: Should we update the bug?

   sp: At least to say "clean audio"

   jf: Status is "open."

   mw: Yes, trackinds was added to spec, and we wanted additional kinds.

   js: Last week we thought we might have a specific use case to keep both "Speech" and "Clean Audio"

   sp: Suggest we at least fix the reference to "clear"

   mw: Should I add a comment re that?

   <silvia> 
and call it "clean"

   [general chorus of ascent]

   jf: Do we need to do anything else with the bug now?

   sp: If we need to add "speech," that will come back, it won't get lost.

Paused Media: Is our approach acceptable to browsers?

   <JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10693

   <JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12662

   jf: last uri another topic--sorry
   ... believe we're getting to a solution
   ... If I understand Steve Faulkner's email, the ml stripping from ARIA-Describedby is being done by browsers, so flat
   text is being passed to a11y apis
   ... So we lose the benefit of the ml

   sp: Can we work with the browsers to fix that?

   jf: Not sure what that means in terms of effort to implement. Is that a big ask?

   ec: Suggest writing up bugs against Safari, Mozilla, IE, Opera, etc
   ... Additional advantage that this would make things work now
   ... A new attrib would give us nothing.

   jf: So all browsers get bugs daily--Will this be taken up anytime soon? How can we follow up?

   ec: Impossible to say, but have the same situation for some other ml approach
   ... Except it's less work to fix the behavior of an existing ml feature

   jf: Just want to explore whether any of us can help elevate this forward so it doesn't languish

   ec: Anything associated with the HTML 5 spec has high visibility, and this is a smaller ask than asking for something
   entirely new

   jf: Eric, can you help me write a good bug on this?

   ec: Think it's pretty simple, that just says "Please expose the ML"

   sp: Need to make sure that the ARIA spec states this more clearly than it does now.

   js: I think we can clear this up quickly as an ARIA errata item.

   <scribe> ACTION: Janina to carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and that
   any such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-129 - Carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and
   that any such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-06-08].

   jf: Also, we may need to have two additional ARIA roles.
   ... Since we have ids pointing to parts of the Describedby string, we should be able to refer to those parts
   semantically

   sp: Need a machine identifiable semantic--if needed, not sure[Discussion whether labeled would suffice]

   jf: Seems this is something for the ARIA group to take up.

Hierarchical Navigation: Do we need a single approach?

   sp: Haven't thought about this enough to have a solution yet.
   ... So, seems it's something we could handle with WebVTT
   ... Suggest only text tracks give us solutsion for jumping to particular offsets in media--it's the use case I'd like
   to discuss

   <JF> Silvia, can you hear us?

   jf: Think Silvia and Janina are saying the same thing,
   ... Think we need a time stamp format that's media agnostic
   ... this also applies to long form audio, an opera or a symphonic work
   ... Am I correct

   ec: I think Silvia is saying this is agnostic of text file format
   ... So it's up to the browser to expose in an agnostic way

   jf: Suggest that remembering audio as one of our use cases will help us develop how we describe this

   <JF> scribe-nick: JF

   <JF> Janina is demonstrating a Daisy player devise

   <JF> giving an audio demonstration

   <JF> goes to the Holy bible to load up navigation, and then navigates the structure

   <JF> describing the device controls

   <JF> book, chapter, phrase, bookmark, testament are all of the options she can navigate to

   mw: One question, Janina demonstrates DAISY book using Holy Bible ...

   Basic navigation is hierarchical

   js: But, do we need ansiliary structure support like DAISY did?

   sp; I think not, it's not in the imtline of the primary media resource

   jf: Just suggesting we make sure we don't need ...

   sp: Can support ansiliary with metadata

   jf: This raises an interesting point, are we also talking metadata, isn't nav metadata

   mw: It is, but it's info attached somehow to the timeline

   <silvia> 
 booknotes, footnotes, sidebars, hyperlinks can be captured in a metadata track

   <silvia> 
 they are an orthogonal problem to navigation markers

   mw: The advance tree view of the nav hierarchy is different from the ansiliary display metadata

   <JF> ARIA has this:

   <JF> tree

   <JF> A type of list that may contain sub-level nested groups that can be collapsed and expanded.

   <JF> treegrid

   <JF> A grid whose rows can be expanded and collapsed in the same manner as for a tree.

   <JF> treeitem

   sp: Think we're currently mixing two issues, jumping to a point, e.g. start chapter three

   <JF> An option item of a tree. This is an element within a tree that may be expanded or collapsed if it contains a
   sub-level group of treeitems.

   sp: As we're playing it, going to next or previous of my current hierarchical level, or to adjust the level before
   moving next previous
   ... the second is very dependent on where I am now

   <JF> +Q

   sp: It's the second I think we're not yet able on

   ec: Chapter gives us flat nav, but does not support hierarchical, or nontext labeling (audio, video, image)

   mw: I've seen DVD's where Chapters are labeled with snipets of video

   <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-chapters <- chapter track in html

   ec: Could be done with metadata

   sp: metadata tracks?\

   <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#text-track-showing-by-default <- chapter navigation is
   already in the spec

   jf: Suggests that the intended use of HTML headings--the old <h1>, <h2>, etc, may be our solution
   ... Perhaps a text file, adding <li>, and ARIA-tree

   <mark> Comment above beginning 'Chapter gives us ...' was mw, not ec

   ec: Unless we want to invent another spec just for this, we need only to define a structure at a high level that
   becomes a requirement on the text file format
   ... That will mean two different ways, if both webvtt and ttml are supported, because both can do that

   <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#texttrackcuelist

   sp: Not concerned so much about the ml as about the mechanism in HTML
   ... Propose I mock up some markup, both WebVTT and TTML, that takes us to HTML

   <JF> +1 to no limits

   <JF> <h1>My video</h1>

   <JF> <h2 cue="">The Beginning</h2>

   <JF> <ul>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>

   <JF> </ul>

   <JF> <h2 cue="">The Middle</h2>

   <JF> <ul>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>

   <JF> </ul>

   <JF> <h2 cue="">The End</h2>

   <JF> <ul>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>

   <JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>

   <JF> </ul>

Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

Other Business?

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Janina to carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and that any
   such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Present: JF silvia mark Janina Eric
People with action items: janina


-- 

Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200
  sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net

Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org 
Linux Foundation  http://a11y.org

Chair, Protocols & Formats
Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)

Received on Wednesday, 1 June 2011 23:18:25 UTC