Re: updated change proposal for issue 129 ARIA in HTML5

Hi Stephen,

>That's probably not a good example for your point, it's a good one for
>mine though: the headline is "HTML Living Standard - Last Updated 2
>February 2011" (but if you're just skimming, the important part is
>HTML).

the point being is the "just skimming" is not available to users of
accessibility clients because there is no differention between the title and
subtitle while there obviously is for users of graphical browsers. what is
the heauristic to be used? only announce the first line of a hgroup during
skimming? that does not work as per below.

>Er, no. Unless you are telling me that AT randomly jumbles order of
paragraphs?

the point here is that the order of content in a hgroup does not relate to
it being a heading or subheading, its the rank of the heading. sorry for
confusing you by not providing a concrete example.

so for graphical browser use there is a difference between:

<hgroup>
<h1>foo</h1>
</h2>bar</h2>
</hgroup>

<hgroup>
<h2>foo</h2>
</h1>bar</h1>
</hgroup>

but both are exposed to accessibility APIs as

<h1>
foo
bar
</h1>

there is loss of information. why should some user not get access to the
same level of information as others?

regards
stevef


On 2 February 2011 13:29, Stephen Stewart <carisenda@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2 February 2011 13:08, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't know how i can explain it better than i have already.
> >
> > when i look at a heading with a subheading, i don't see a single heading
> i
> > see 2 distinct pieces of information that are related.
> >
> > here is a real example (from
> > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/):
> >
> >
> > <hgroup>
> > <h1>HTML</h1>
> > <h2>Living Standard - Last Updated 2 February 2011</h2>
> >  </hgroup>
> >
> > the h1 is the title of the document, the h2 is a subtitle.
> >
> > becomes this
> > <h1>
> > <p>HTML</p>
> > <p>Living Standard - Last Updated 2 February 2011</p>
> > </h1>
> >
> > So when it gets reayed via an accessibility API there is no longer any
> > distinction between the title and subtitle. there is no longer any
> semantic
> > differentiation.
>
> That's probably not a good example for your point, it's a good one for
> mine though: the headline is "HTML Living Standard - Last Updated 2
> February 2011" (but if you're just skimming, the important part is
> HTML).
>
> > yet another point is that placement does not infer what is the heading vs
> > subheading in the hgroup, its rank, yet there is no way to infer that
> from
> > as the h ranks are collapsed.
> >
> > <h1>
> > <p>HTML</p>
> > <p>Living Standard - Last Updated 2 February 2011</p>
> > </h1>
> >
> > is the same as
> >
> > <h1>
> > <p>Living Standard - Last Updated 2 February 2011</p>
> > <p>HTML</p>
> > </h1>
> >
>
> Er, no. Unless you are telling me that AT randomly jumbles order of
> paragraphs?
>
> --
> Stephen Stewart
> carisenda@gmail.com
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html