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MINUTES: HTML-A11Y Task Force Telecon 03 June 2010

From: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:26:24 -0500
To: "public-html-a11y@w3.org" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D0751D54-126A-4A5C-9B88-EC0AE873D985@illinois.edu>
Link to the minutes:



HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
03 Jun 2010


See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-irc>


+1.650.862.aaaa, +67079aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita, Matt, Michael_Cooper, MikeSmith, Janina, jongunderson, +1.408.307.aacc, Rich, +0207388aadd
Jim_Allan, Denis_Boudreau, Kelly_Ford, Ben_Caldwell, Martin_Kliehm, Silvia_Pfeiffer, Leif

 *   Topics<http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
    *   Action Item Review<http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
    *   Sub Team Reports<http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
    *   Drag and Drop<http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
    *   triage of Weekly Resolved & Rejected Bugs Report<http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html#item04>
 *   Summary of Action Items<http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>


<oedipus> MikeSmith, rrsagent is still running - i presume it is ok to dismiss it?

<MikeSmith> oedipus, yep

<JF_> Morning Jon - on my agenda is to contact you re: educause

<trackbot> Date: 03 June 2010

<MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0010.html

<MikeSmith> scribe: jongunderson

Action Item Review

MS: First think we want to do is check the open action items

<oedipus> i/MS: first think/TOPIC: Action Item Review

<MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/overdue

MC: I am in now I can walk the..

MS: Ok

<oedipus> action-20?

<trackbot> ACTION-20 -- Wendy Chisholm to work with Charles to dig up history on column element -- due 2010-06-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/20

MC: Action 20 is on wendy

MS: Wendy is not here

MC: This is related to tables, headers I would assume

JS: I thnk we are fairly open on it

<MichaelC> action-20 due 17 June

<trackbot> ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element due date now 17 June

MC: SHould we extend the date by a few weeks

JS: Yes

MC: I will extend

<Marco_Ranon> Sorry for the delay.

MC: GR, MC, Cynthia and Mike have actions, but they are not due yet, they should be pinged

MS: Is that it for open action items?

MC: Yes

Sub Team Reports

MS: Canvas?

RS: I have another proposal out that address the Apple comments
... One of the features from Apple for focus areas create a rectangle, none support the rectangle, so it would be more work
... Some people wanted to avoid feature creep, I hope we vote on it monday
... As far as CMN proposal I have not seen it, JS have you seen it?

JS: not a thing

RS: The canvas will not be the road blocker for HTML 5
... That is not a negative statement, I just know they have alot of work to do
... James added additional requirements, I addressed most of them but some are not needed right now, some things were nice but not required

MS: ARIA Mapping?

RS: I have attended the meetings, we went through the new HTML elements like DETAILS and TIME widget
... For the 2th for the changes in the HML5 spec we will provide a second document that will provide the API mapping, alot of the AT manuafactures have not implemented all the controls
... There may be problems with implementations that require chanes

MS: It is a recursive process to refine the spec

RS: Give that caveat we shoudl be ready by the 24

CS: I agree, the mapping table will be in a draft form, with some introductory text

RS: It is more than we promised to do

<oedipus> media minutes 2010-06-02: http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02/html-a11y-minutes.html

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements

<oedipus> Review of Media Accessibility Requirements survey<http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20080526_media-requirements/>

MS: Media?

<oedipus> results of Review of Media Accessibility Requirements survey<http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20080526_media-requirements/results>

JF: We had a lengthy discussion about the survey and what we were trying to do
... We were trying to get to the user requirements without the technical issues

<oedipus> GJR reminds others that if form too long, there is a text alternative: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20080526_media-requirements/text

JF: We really need to get the user requirements and there was not alot of response, we extended the response time to Monday
... We need to get as many responses as possible
... We need this infomration to make sure the technology specs will meet the user needs
... There are some questions of when we use "should" and "must" in the technical specs
... Some technologies cannot handle multiple streams
... I encourage people to go throuh the survey it will take 30-40 minutes
... This is the primary focus, we cannot move on until we get this part done

MS: I encourage people to respond, please take some time today or tomorrow to do that

<oedipus> Copy to Clipboard - ambush and abuse by javascript (post to www-tag by Tim Berners-Lee)<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0007.html>

Drag and Drop

MS: We have Gez today to talk about Drag and Drop
... I will post some links on the subject

<oedipus> compare: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#dragdrop to http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/dnd.html#dnd

Gez: I would like to compare HTML5 and ARIA, there are three issues, 2 trival and one serious

<MikeSmith> HTML5 Drag and Drop Model (summary from Gez)<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0179.html>

<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0179.html

Gez: Difference is include information on whether something is being dragged, it is relatively straight forward to add to HTML 5

<MikeSmith> WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices: Drag-and-Drop Support<http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#dragdrop>

Gez: The Drop effect attribute, in HTML5 does not have values "execute" and "popup"

<MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#dragdrop

<oedipus> verbiage currently in HTML5 draft: "On media without a pointing device, the user would probably have to explicitly indicate his intention to perform a drag-and-drop operation, stating what he wishes to drag and what he wishes to drop, respectively."

Gez: These have more to do with functionality than accessibility
... i was not able to make a drag and drop example in a way that the browser new was going on, maybe it is a browser implementation issue

<MikeSmith> Drag and drop<http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/dnd.html> section of HTML5 spec

Gez: Couple of events that are needed for "mouseover" keyboard, if they were implemented as keyboard you would be thinking "onfocus"
... Earlier on in discussion there was talk about "copy and Paste" function

<oedipus> Copy to Clipboard - ambush and abuse by javascript (post to www-tag by Tim Berners-Lee)<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0007.html>

Gez: What is the effect of the paste
... I am not sure why it was reoved from the spec

<JF_> (JF thinks re-adding Copy and Paste API would be a good thing...)

Gez: the end of this it would be good, for there would be a group of people to come up with a recommendation on an input device independent way
... Anyone with experience with drag and drop, we could get together and come up with a set of recomendations

MS: Ok, so, is there anyone on the call who could help Gez with this?

<oedipus> Clipboard Operations for the Web: Copy Paste and Drag and Drop (November 2008)<http://www.w3.org/TR/clipboard-apis/>

Gez: If we could use the paste function we could use the drop effect

RS: The popup is going tobe really important, if you need to make a decision
... Some of the functions were only available using th emouse, will there be any visible indication when people are using the keyboard

Gez: There are certain events that allow you to do this, but not with the keyboard, the drag over needs a keyboard equivalent, ....

RS: Sounds like you want the ability to trigger the drag over
... What are you thinking?

Gez: If we have the equivalent of a copy and paste; I don't understand the drag over event, you might update things as you drag over an area
... My main concern is this "dragover" event, why does a developer need to do that?

CS: What about a sighted user, so you know where to drop something

Gez: That does make sense, but if you were a keyboard user you would gather your thoughts....
... You will never really raise that event with the keyboartd

MS: I am wondering if it woul dmake sense to post a message to the HTML5 working group to get clarification on the usage of these events

Gez: I think that is a good next plan

RS We talked about using the clip board, what about moving by reference

Gez: that would be the result of sepecting the target, like in ARIA

RS: It sounds like there are some implementation issues or the use of ARIA to supplement
... DO you want to use ARIA or get HTML5 integration

<oedipus> plus 1 to solve natively and not use ARIA to plug hole (ARIA should be used only when hole cannot be plugged natively)

Gez: there is not that much that needs to be added to HTML 5, the way it is currently setup is using the mouse

Gez; the current spec is very complicated to use drag and drop

RS: There is an action item on how to do this with a keyboard
... If we identify holes we can take them back to the HTML 5 working group
... The mousedrag over needs to be done with the keyboard, this is a show stopper

Gez: All of the events do not specify the input device, but the dragover seems like it can only be done with the keyboard

RS: It sounds like you want a navigate too function, if you can write up how a browser manufacture could do this and identify the holes

Gez: that makes sense
... That sounds like a good plan, is there a deadline

MS: We do not have an issue int he HTML 5 tracker
... We have been driving this from the task force side, there is not HTML5 deadline

MC: We have inforstate, we have not provided

RS: Tehy are asking us for how do you make this accessible with the keyboard

<oedipus> a really big thanks to Gez for herding these cats for the TF!

MS: there is not hard dealine, but there is a sense an urgency, we would like to have this resolved before last call, how about 3 weeks

Gez: I will try

MS: Is there any help you need form the task force? We can send a message out to try to get you some help and what you need.

Gez: I would appreciate some help if someone can

MS: JS and MC?

JS: I think this has been a useful discussion, it does not seem we are ready to write a change propsoal

MS: Gez will be drafting the change proposal

JS: Thank you Gez for coming to this call

Gez: Your welcome

MS: MS: Every week Laura sends out a report on resolved and rejected bugs, we usually do not have time to review

triage of Weekly Resolved & Rejected Bugs Report

<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0205.html

MS: Is there anyone willing to help with triage before this meeting to see what is a priority for the group to discuss
... What we can try to do today and see what we should take actio on
... I think we should add the task force keyword?

<MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9817

MC: I am still trying to get oriented to the bugs

<MikeSmith> bug from Rich: Details element Focus problem

MS: One by RS about the process for dealing with these types of issues
... A11YTF with out an underscore

MC: The other thing to do is to put the Task force ont he CC list

MS: I am not sure what 9804 is about

<MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9775

MS: 9975

<oedipus> SteveF to file bug on problem reported in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0023.html

JF: The next 3 are all related 9773, 9774 9775. These are more like question, we do not really have answers

<MichaelC> looks like the task force email was already added to these bugs; so we just have to mark a11ytf keyword on the ones we're tracking

<MichaelC> note, I think we shouldn't have the task force email on bugs until they get the a11ytf

JF: What is the difference between sub tiltes and captions? There are differences, but not usually from the technology perspective.

MS: My inclination on these is to get a response from hixy, it seems like they are more clarification that substantive issues

JF: I don't have an objection, 9773 is been viewed as a technical question, but I am not sure it is, I will keep track of them

JS: I think the media sub group could discuss the merits to have separate tracks for captions and sub titltes

JF: We are talking about deinitiions, and not just technical
... Some of the questions need to clarify the technical and definitional issues of the issue

JS: The last one is a concern from an alanog broadcast medium, thats legacy

MS: This is something the media sub grou can keep track of

JS: Maybe it does get the A11YTF keyboard there

MS: They already have the media keyboard

MC: We should also have the TF keyboard even if it is being worked in the sub groups

MS: Add the TF to the three issues

MSL There is another issue that Laurie identified, we had a discussion a couple months ago about adding that keyboard

<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if we are actually planning on following up on Paul Cotton's idea that we file a bug against the HTML5 spec asking that -- where accessibility features

<oedipus> if we are planning on following up on Paul Cotton's idea that we file a bug against the HTML5 spec asking that -- where accessibility features have been removed or for which superior replacements have not yet been identified -- the a11y features of HTML 4.01 be restored: should it happen before or after heartbeat draft published?

MS: I am not sure it is something we need to do in marking, I am not sure we should let anyone add the keyboard

GR: I have a strategic question, that accessibility HTML 4.01 features should be restored ...

MS: Unless we are asking for a delay, we will have to waite until after

<JF_> +1 to that Greg

GR: I want this as a safety net back in, i will do some more work on this and have "this should be retained until"

MS: That owuld be good to have on the wiki

JF: The use of the A11YTF keyboard maybe we should do this part in our weekly calls, make this part of the weekly call, right after actin items

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say TF members can recommend bugs we take on formally, but +1 to MS that we need a group decision to do so

JF: the keyword is applied in the weekly call, we have clear an open forum, peple who have an issue can join the call

MS: We could also do this on the mailing list, JS and I could send a message to the list serv

MC: I think it is a good thing to formally adopt and issue, people should vote for bugs

MS: That is as much we can do for today, any other business
... We are on for next week at the same time
... ANy voluneteers to scribe next week

<MikeSmith> [adjourned]



Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2010/06/03 16:03:19 $
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Inferring ScribeNick: jongunderson
Default Present: +1.650.862.aaaa, +67079aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita, Matt, Michael_Cooper, MikeSmith, Janina, jongunderson, +1.408.307.aacc, Rich, +0207388aadd
Present: +1.650.862.aaaa +67079aabb Gregory_Rosmaita Matt Michael_Cooper MikeSmith Janina jongunderson +1.408.307.aacc Rich +0207388aadd
Regrets: Jim_Allan Denis_Boudreau Kelly_Ford Ben_Caldwell Martin_Kliehm Silvia_Pfeiffer Leif
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0010.html
Found Date: 03 Jun 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items:

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