- From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 09:03:43 +0000
- To: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com>
- Cc: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, David Bolter <dbolter@mozilla.com>, Marco Zehe <marco.zehe@googlemail.com>, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>
Hi Ben, > Hmm … thinking about it, that provision is rather dangerous. I don't understand where the issue is, if you have > <ul> > <li><a href="foo">Foo</a></li> > <li>Bar</li> > <li>Baz</li> > </ul> where is the use case for adding presentation to it when you make the list collapsible? you state: "and provided a focusable button with a plus symbol for unrolling them." so the button semantic should be exposed and the state of the list (expanded/collapsed) where does the use of presentation fit into this or cause an issue? besides it looks very much like a place to use the details element no? > Perhaps role="presentation" should be restricted to the "table" > element, as this is the element most widely abused for its > presentational qualities? there are good reasons to allow presentation on other elements such as lists: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450#c6 >This doesn't absolutely solve the problem > (in that UAs might build focusable UIs on top of table semantics, e.g. > allow column headers to be focused for native sorting) use grid > columheader regards stevef On 24 December 2010 08:18, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 7:13 AM, Steve Faulkner > <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote: >> The ARIA spec does not prohibit the use of any roles on structural >> elements such as headings, but it is >> unequivocal about role=presentation in this case: >> >> "If an element with a role of presentation is focusable, user agents >> MUST ignore the normal effect of the role and expose the element with >> implicit native semantics, in order to ensure that the element is both >> understandable and operable." > > Hmm … thinking about it, that provision is rather dangerous. > > In some UAs it would lead to role="presentation" being ignored on > structural elements because they allow the structural elements to > receive some sort of focus. > > Opera Mini 3 introduced "content folding". > > http://www.opera.com/press/releases/2006/11/28/ > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzTlmedXAlo > > To reduce the amount of scrolling, it rolled up long lists of links > and provided a focusable button with a plus symbol for unrolling them. > For example: > > <ul> > <li><a href="foo">Foo</a></li> > <li>Bar</li> > <li>Baz</li> > </ul> > > Would be rolled up into a presentation like: > > Foo [+] > > Move focus to the [+] and activate it, and you get: > > Foo > Bar > Baz > > UC Browser provides a similar feature in it's adaptive view: > > http://www.ucweb.com/English/UCbrowser/OperatingSkills.html#4 > > UAs are free to build focusable UIs on top of structural elements and > will then be required to ignore role="presentation". > > This means authors cannot rely on role="presentation" being applied. > For interoperability, we should arguably discourage them using it. > > Perhaps role="presentation" should be restricted to the "table" > element, as this is the element most widely abused for its > presentational qualities? This doesn't absolutely solve the problem > (in that UAs might build focusable UIs on top of table semantics, e.g. > allow column headers to be focused for native sorting) but at least > restricts it to one element. > > ARIA could try to mandate that UAs apply formatting and ignore > semantics for all elements with role="presentation". Defining > "formatting" here could be problematic though. > > -- > Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Friday, 24 December 2010 09:04:36 UTC