RE: [COI] Clinical Observations Interoperability Telcon January 15 2008

Samson,
 
Thanks for the feedback. My comments are included in the e-mail below.
 
Is there a good time sometime tomorrow or Monday, when we can discuss these
issues
over the phone. Furthermore, I would like to solicit your help and involvement
in coming up with
the expressions.
 
See comments included...


	I was responding to Helen's request for information about  "a good
ontology version of RIM/CDA"
	[VK] That is the one of the goals of the COI project. The methodology is
to use some use cases to drive the analysis and design work required to come up
with an ontology version of the RIM/CDA. 
	Would be great if I could have feedback on the following Brainstorming
slides which I have developed to explain our thinking and methodology. Maybe we
can discuss this when we speak on the phone.
	 
	
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/ClinicalObservationsInteroperability?action=AttachF
ile&do=get&target=BrainstormingSlides.ppt
<http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/ClinicalObservationsInteroperability?action=Attach
File&do=get&target=BrainstormingSlides.ppt> 

	I think Alan Rector's paper is still relevant to your use case. My
understanding is that, in his view,  HL7/RIM/CDA are *information model*
constructs that use *terminology codes*  that are induced/have bindings from
ontology or *model of reality" things. So if you are modeling eligibility
criteria using HL7RIM/CDA, most of the items in your spreadsheets are
terminology codes, not entities in an ontology.
	[VK] I agree with you that Alan Rector's paper is very relevant. Our
goal is to apply his approach to come up with a working model which can be
implemented to support patient recruitment functionality
	
	
	There are so many ways to model eligibility criteria.  I am not sure I
understand "filling this table with HL7/RIM/CDA constructs." The RIM Acts have
criterion mood. So an eligibility criterion involving "Serum Creatine," for
example, can be an Observation Act in criterion mood with code = a terminology
code for Serum Creatinine and value = an interval of Physical Quantity (and
maybe effectiveTime to express temporal constraint. Presumably Tom Marley's OWL
ITS of the HL7 RIM would give you such a RIM construct the criterion in OWL
syntax. (
	[VK] This is very similar to the discussion I had with Dan Russler. In
my mind you seem to be proposing a methodology to express an eligibility
criteria (Serum Creatinine value > X).
	Observation.code for Serum Creatinine
	Act.effectiveTime for getting the time of the observation if required.
	Observation.value = Interval of Physical Quantitiy
	 
	These things have to be taken together to come up with an OWL expression
to model eligibility criteria.
	 
	BTW, I tried doing the same thing with Drugs and tried to use the
SubstanceAdministration class, but didn't get very far.
	I believe that there are a lot of hidden gotcha's in this and as we work
out more examples, we will need to come up with best practices to model them in
OWL/Rules etc.
	 
	 Alternatively, you can use GELLO to write the criterion). Using OWL
expressions to model eligibility criteria is another matter. I apologize if
these comments reflect my ignorance about what you are doing.  I am not familiar
with prior discussions about the spreadsheet.
	[VK] Yes, GELLO is a possibility to model the logical expressions
related with the criteria whereas RDF/OWL might be useful to represent the data
and knowledge descriptions.
	I understand the context and background of how we are creating the
spread sheet is not clear...
	 
	Look forward to a discussion with you around this.
	 
	Regards,
	 
	---Vipul 

	Samson 

	On Jan 16, 2008, at 8:18 PM, Kashyap, Vipul wrote:


		Samson,
		 
		Thanks for the pointer. Our use case is different, we are more
interested in using HL7/RIM constructs
		to model eligibility criteria for some diabetes related clinical
protocols.
		 
		An initial attempt at doing this is available at:
	
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/ClinicalObservationsInteroperability/RIMRDFOWL?acti
on=AttachFile&do=get&target=ModelingConstructsForDiabetesData.xls
<http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/ClinicalObservationsInteroperability/RIMRDFOWL?act
ion=AttachFile&do=get&target=ModelingConstructsForDiabetesData.xls> 

		It will be great if you could help us in filling out this table
using HL7/RIM/CDA constructs.

		Thanks!

		---Vipul


________________________________

			From: Samson Tu [mailto:swt@stanford.edu] 
			Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:57 PM
			To: helen.chen@agfa.com
			Cc: Kashyap, Vipul; public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org
			Subject: Re: [COI] Clinical Observations
Interoperability Telcon January 15 2008
			
			
			Tom Marley and Alan Rector, under a consultancy contract
with NHS CfH, have successfully encoded a significant subset of HL7 RIM and NHS
messages and message fragments in OWL. According to [1], Tom Marley is preparing
an OWL ITS of the HL7 RIM and data types based on this work. A conference paper
describing this work generically is available at [2].
			
			[1]
http://detailedclinicalmodels.org/wiki/index.php?title=Model_Formalism#OWL
			[2]
http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/%7Erector/papers/krmed2006-rector-binding-ontologies-to-
ehrs.pdf
			
			Samson
			
			helen.chen@agfa.com wrote: 


				Vipul and all 
				
				Sorry I will not be able to dial in today due to
a time conflict. 
				
				I started to put up a wiki to examine some
previous effort on converting RIM/CDA  to RDF/OWL for semantic web reasoning.
The page is here 
				
	
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/ClinicalObservationsInteroperability/HL7CDA2OWL.htm
l?action=show 
				
				I will add more content later this afternoon.
Please feel free to add links if you know a good ontology version of RIM/CDA. 
				
				Regards. 
				
				Helen 
				  
				


			-- 
			Samson Tu                                   email:
swt@stanford.edu 
			Senior Research Scientist                   web:
www.stanford.edu/~swt/
			Center for Biomedical Informatics Research  phone:
1-650-725-3391
			Stanford University                         fax:
1-650-725-7944

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