W3C

GRDDL Working Group Weekly Teleconference

11 Apr 2007

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
john-l, HarryH, Chimezie_Ogbuji, FabienG, +0127368aaaa, jjc, briansuda, rreck, DanC
Regrets
IanD
Simone
Chair
HarryH
Scribe
Chime

Contents


Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-04-10T11:00-0400

<HarryH> PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG Weekly --4 April 2007 as a true record

<HarryH> So note the real minutes are here:

<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Apr/att-0039/04-grddl-wg-minutes.html

<HarryH> RESOLVED : approved GRDDL WG Weekly --4 April 2007 as a true record

<HarryH> Reck will be scribe next meeting.

<HarryH> Jeremy?

<HarryH> Jeremy can scribe next meeting.

GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work

<HarryH> DanC?

<HarryH> Without DanC, I suggest we move to Test Cases.

Test Cases: Towards Last Call

scribe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Apr/0031.html

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#projectsSpreadsheet

input: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/projects.xml

outpu: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/projects.rdf

scribe:prior approval: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Nov/att-0096/22-grddl-wg-minutes.html#item03

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: Approve http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#projectsSpreadsheet as a valid test for test-case document.

<HarryH> RESOLVED: Approved http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#projectsSpreadsheet as a valid test for test-case document.

jjc: prefer test approval for material, and review WD as a whole (with test text)

john-l: same preference

<HarryH> ACTION: john-l to add text to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#projectsSpreadsheet [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<HarryH> ACTION: john-l is to add text to any tests many text where deemed appropriate. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]

Remaining tests with prior approval:

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#atomttl1

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#xmlWithGrddlAttribute

<HarryH> PROPOSED: To reapprove in bulk all tests with prior approval.

<HarryH> RESOLVED: all tests with prior approval approved.

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#base-param

<HarryH> PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#base-param as a valid test for test-case document.

<HarryH> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#base-param as a valid test for test-case document.

scribe:http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#rdfa1

HarryH: we should approve this noting that the stylesheet may be updated

FabienG: 1) difference btwn implementation 2) RDFa spec is not stable

jjc: text should reflect that the transform does not reflect a general RDFa transform

FabienG: works fine WRT the test case

FabienG: should the transform predicate be included in the output?

FabienG: at F2F - the transform is ignored

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#rdfa1 as a valid test for test-case document.

<HarryH> ACTION: john-l to make sure rdfa1 test case text reflects current state of rdfa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]

<HarryH> APPROVED: Given caveat about current state of rdfa, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#rdfa1 as a valid test for test-case document.

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#title_author

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#title_author is a valid test for test-case document.

<HarryH> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#title_author is a valid test for test-case document.

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#multiprofile

scribe:<head profile="http://purl.org/NET/erdf/profile

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#multiprofile is a valid test for test-case document.

scribe:>http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard">

jjc: possibility that changes to the profile effected validity of output

<john-l> +1

jjc: we should copy these profiles to our test repository

<john-l> (+1 to that, rather)

jjc: would like to see the test modified in that regard

<HarryH> ACTION: jjc to do modify http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#multiprofile to keep all profiles in W3C space. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]

<jjc> ^W3C^GRDDL WG^

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#inline

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#inline is a valid test for test-case document.

<HarryH> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#inline is a valid test for test-case document.

scribe:http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#sq2

scribe:the ns document is served as application/rdf+xml (no controversy there)

<HarryH> PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#sq2 is a valid test for test-case document.

<HarryH> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#sq2 is a valid test for test-case document.

<HarryH> Chime: What all the controversial ones have is a "multiple output" sort of one.

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#multiple-output

scribe:the tests with maximal results are less ambiguous

jjc: for the langconneg ppl probably pass the english version but not the german version

jjc: is there a maximal result of the merge of the english and german GRDDL results?

scribe:to calculate the maximal result, dont yo uneed to know the accept headers up front?

jjc: technically possible

<DanC_lap> (I'd be happy to leave the german test in the someday pile.)

scribe: not neccessary for testing phase

<DanC_lap> (actually, the IETF rules is included in W3C process, as a SHOULD)

<DanC_lap> (is discussion of our request for CR/PR on the agenda?)

<jjc> (transparent content negotiation)

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#xinclude

jjc: Jena reader passes the noxinclude version

scribe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0010.html

scribe:[[[

* http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/#noxinclude failed

ok: since raptor does do xinclude processing this is ok to fail

]]]

<HarryH> (I'm happy to discuss CR/PR is we have time. In particular, as soon as I get EARL from Jena I'll make an implementation report, but I need Jena's results and the precise number of tests to be approved)

<jjc> EARL from Jena this week ... hopefully

HarryH: as long as implementations pass noxinclude I'm happy

jjc: agrees.. but we need enough evidence

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#noxinclude

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#xinclude is a valid test for test-case document.

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#xinclude and ihttp://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#noxinclude as a valid test for test-case document.

<DanC_lap> is the .html on purpose?

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#xinclude and http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#noxinclude as a valid test for test-case document.

<DanC_lap> 2nd

<HarryH> For previous resolutsions regards tests s/.html//

<DanC_lap> yes, s/.html#/#/g in resolutions of this meeting

<HarryH> APPROVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#xinclude and http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#noxinclude as a valid test for test-case document.

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#grddlonrdf1

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#grddlonrdf2

scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#grddlonrdf3

scribe:if a test passes the third, can it assume it has passed the others?

scribe:the maximal result is not isomorphic with the others

<DanC_lap> (tests don't assume anything; they're not thinking things)

<HarryH> \me asks DanC - can you take over chairing at noon? I still have these meetings at noon on Wed. till early May :(

jjc: issues with the test text

<DanC_lap> chairing... tricky... perhaps, if we start making the transition 10 minutes before you need to go.

scribe:so is "However, for the purpose of running these tests in order to determine compliance, a GRDDL-aware agent with a security policy which does not prevent it from applying transformations identified by each test will produce the GRDDL result associated with each normative test.

scribe:" authoritative?

jjc: happy to approve number 3, and modify text of 1-2

<jjc> no delete 1-2

<jjc> annd modify text of 3

<HarryH> Note that I can't right CR transition till our test cases are fairly stable, so this test approval process is quite important.

<DanC_lap> you can start on the CR request at any time, harry. I find it's often good to work backwards from the goal

<DanC_lap> or perhaps somebody else can start on the CR request

<HarryH> ACTION: Chime and john-l to remove non-maximal tests with ones with security relevancy. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]

<DanC_lap> action -5

jjc: issues with general conneg and what the 'maximal' result is

<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH to start working on CR/PR transition report for GRDDL Spec. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]

jjc: would like to see the merge as a seperate test for conneg

<jjc> ACTION: jjc to produce/check merge results involving content negotiation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]

issue-http-header-links

<HarryH> I'm happy to drop this.

<HarryH> I'm happy to e-mail IanD and ask him to drop this.

<DanC_lap> WITHDRAWN. it falls to the someday pile. bonus points to anybody who picks this up and makes progress on it.

base case GRDDL rule and application/xml documents

scribe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0010.html

scribe:[[[

I do notice http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/sq1ns

is not of the RDF mime type, should it really be handled

as RDF/XML?

]]]

<DanC_lap> DanC: this WG decided that the answer is yes, IIRC.

scribe:does this require the GRDDL-aware agent to attempt to parse all source documents as RDF/XML?

<HarryH> I thought there was a rule about this sort of sniffing.

<john-l> All application/xml source documents...

<HarryH> I.e. look for rdf:RDF.

scribe:the spec doesn't speak about media-type

scribe:just 'conforming RDF/XML'

<john-l> But if it's conforming RDF/XML, then it must also be XML, so anything that's not in an XML media type could not be a conforming RDF/XML document.

scribe:RDF/XML spec doesn't define conformance by anything other than the content not the media-type over the wire

<HarryH> In which case we're okay as regards RDF/XML.

<HarryH> So, one can serve RDF/XML as application/xml and still interpret it as RDF.

<HarryH> We might want to bring this up explicitly in informative text.

<HarryH> However, we should remember that we don't want to tie the spec to RDF/XML.

<DanC_lap> the relevant WG decision is under feb 7 under http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#issue-mt-ns

<jjc> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-grammar-productions

scribe: discussion continues on what RDF/XML 'conformance' is ..

<DanC_lap> "If an information resource IR is represented by a conforming RDF/XML document[RDFX], then the RDF graph represented by that document is a GRDDL result of IR"

<HarryH> What if IR is in N3?

<HarryH> Sorry for asking the question :(

<HarryH> It's a real edge-case.

<DanC_lap> then the premise of that rule isn't satisfied and you gotta look elsewhere, Harry

<HarryH> Hmmm...

<DanC_lap> <foo/>

<HarryH> Is there a notion of RDF conformance that isn't tied to RDF/XML?

DanC_lap: is a conforming RDF/XML document

<DanC_lap> <foo xmlns="http://example/vocab" />

<HarryH> I'll just have to re-read the spec and look for this...anyways, feel free to ignore my comments as I'm not on the phone.

<jjc> If an information resource IR is represented by a conforming RDF/XML document[RDFX], then the RDF graph represented by that document is a GRDDL result of IR.

<john-l> What about what http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-grammar-productions about application/rdf+xml?

scribe:http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#sq1

<DanC_lap> DanC nominates jjc to review this sq1 test

<DanC_lap> JJC: sq1 is not problematic; it bears the rdf:RDF root element

<DanC_lap> ... or... hmm...

<DanC_lap> (the TAG concurred with the idea that the root element namespace URI works as an alternative to a MIME type decl)

<HarryH> +` root element namespace URI working as an alternatie to MIME type.

<HarryH> +1

<DanC_lap> ACTION: JohnL to draft refinement to "If an information resource IR is represented by a conforming RDF/XML document[RDFX], then the RDF graph represented by that document is a GRDDL result of IR" to be clear that "some other means", for our purposes, is a namespace on the root elt [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]

GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work

<DanC_lap> DanC collects advice on the xml pi appendix

<DanC_lap> ADJOURN

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Chime and john-l to remove non-maximal tests with ones with security relevancy. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: HarryH to start working on CR/PR transition report for GRDDL Spec. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: jjc to do modify http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#multiprofile to keep all profiles in W3C space. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jjc to produce/check merge results involving content negotiation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: john-l is to add text to any tests many text where deemed appropriate. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: john-l to add text to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#projectsSpreadsheet [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: john-l to make sure rdfa1 test case text reflects current state of rdfa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: JohnL to draft refinement to "If an information resource IR is represented by a conforming RDF/XML document[RDFX], then the RDF graph represented by that document is a GRDDL result of IR" to be clear that "some other means", for our purposes, is a namespace on the root elt [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS log)
$Date: 2007/04/11 16:28:35 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: chimezie
Found Scribe: Chime
Default Present: john-l, HarryH, Chimezie_Ogbuji, FabienG, +0127368aaaa, jjc, briansuda, rreck, DanC
Present: john-l HarryH Chimezie_Ogbuji FabienG +0127368aaaa jjc briansuda rreck DanC
Regrets: IanD

WARNING: No meeting title found!
You should specify the meeting title like this:
<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting

Got date from IRC log name: 11 Apr 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: chime harryh is jjc john-l johnl

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