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Re: Ill-defined programs

From: Kai Ninomiya <kainino@google.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:42:20 +0000
Message-ID: <CANxMeyALuGkK+8YBHrZoq97+DCSFRv6Go2j8xTxUbobkNbTBgg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
Cc: Dzmitry Malyshau <dmalyshau@mozilla.com>, public-gpu <public-gpu@w3.org>
Dzmitry, I want to just clarify David's intent, if I understand it
correctly. His document is focused solely on the security constraints. When
we say, "There is no duty to detect or report whether an application is
actually ill-behaved," we're only saying that it's not required for WebGPU
to be secure.

There is, of course, still difference of opinion in whether we should
ultimately actually detect/normalize ill behavior.

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:39 PM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:

>
> On Nov 13, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Dzmitry Malyshau <dmalyshau@mozilla.com>
> wrote:
>
> I'd like to follow-up on discussion points mentioned in
> https://github.com/gpuweb/gpuweb/issues/39:
>
> > There is no duty to detect or report whether an application is actually
> ill-behaved. Attempting to do so may incur overhead. For a development
> environment it may be desirable to detect bad behaviour, but that is not a
> security requirement.
> > We don't care about the computed results or performance of an
> ill-behaved application. That may be a user-experience concern, but not a
> security concern.
>
> This is wider than just shaders or just security, so I'm following up on
> email as opposed to hijacking the GitHub thread.
>
>
> I agree that consistent behavior for ill-behaved applications is nit a
> security requirement. But it is a
>
>
> Meant to say: but it is an interoperability requirement.
>
>
>
> The approach expressed by David matches the direction we (as in - Mozilla)
> would like to see WebGPU going: allow the user to fully (*explicitly*)
> specify what needs to be done, promise the portability and best performance
> for well-defined programs, and secure the ill-defined programs without
> going extra mile for making them portable or fast.
>
> It goes somewhat across the Apple's idea that since the browser has to
> validate all the API calls (or, in this case, shader code/execution) for
> security, it can make detailed decisions on how the work is submitted to
> the backend API (e.g. insert pipeline barriers, allocate resource memory,
> clamp array indices, etc), thus turning the exposed API to have more
> implicit parts.
>
> Trying to figure out the steps to make an objective (non-opinionated) call
> to this issue, we can start with these questions:
>   1. Are there any objections to lowering portability/performance
> guarantees for ill-defined programs?
>
>
> Yes. Strong objection. If behavior of any programs is not fully specified,
> then web developers will start to accidentally depend on the behavior of
> one browser (usually whichever is most popular), and then browsers will
> have to reverse-engineer each others' behavior. This has happened so many
> times in the course of web standards development that it's almost a running
> joke. Every once in a while someone says "hey, let's just not define error
> handling, we only need to define the behavior for valid content" it
> happens. The first time was HTML, Browsers ended up reverse-engineering
> each other's error handling until finally they got sick of the W3C not
> defining this and formed the WHATWG to create HTML5, which fully specified
> parsing behavior for all invalid documents. CSS, JavaScript and WebAssembly
> also have fully interoperable behavior by spec, even in "invalid" or
> "error" or "ill-defined" cases.
>
> Let's not make this rookie mistake. We must fully define the behavior of
> all programs.
>
>
>   2. Are there any objections to having an optional debug validation layer?
>
>
> I don't know what that means so no opinion,
>
>   3. Can we agree that API simplicity is lower priority than security
> (starting with obvious), portability, and performance?
>
>
> Security (for some appropriate definition) is a hard requirement.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Dzmitry
>
>

Received on Monday, 13 November 2017 21:42:56 UTC

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