Charlie Wiecha, IBM
John Boyer, IBM (chair)
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Roger Pérez, SATEC
Steven Pemberton, CWI/W3C
Uli Lissé, DreamLabs
Keith Wells, IBM
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0005.html
Agenda items needed
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0008.html
Action 2008-10-8.1: John Boyer to publish implementation reports received from Keith Wells in 2008 space.
Action 2008-10-8.2: John Boyer to publish implementation report from received from Kenneth Sklander in 2008 space.
Leigh Klotz: From Get Addons it
doesn't show compatibility.
Keith Wells: Try
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/824
Leigh Klotz: That works. It didn't
show up as compatible though. You or I can report that.
Keith Wells:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addons/versions/824 has
all versions.
John Boyer: We need implementation
reports now. Once I get the submission headers in, we'll need to
get the reports and analyze them for features. We may have to yank
unimplemented features and have a short last call. We need more
implementations.
Keith Wells: Can we do our
implementation report on Ubiquity to satisfy that?
John Boyer: We did that for
Firefox.
Keith Wells: So we can implement the
missing features in Ubiquity.
John Boyer: Yes, we can see if any
implementors are willing to implementat the features and amend
their reports.
Steven Pemberton: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/xforms/
says XForms 1.1 is a Recommendation and should be fixed. It also
doesn't say that 0.86 is released.
Leigh Klotz: I'd say to link to
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addons/versions/824
directly.
Steven Pemberton: Is that the latest
version?
Leigh Klotz: That's the unique id for
the XForms extension.
Steven Pemberton: And the project
page, who owns that?
John Boyer: Aaron Reed
Steven Pemberton: I'll ask him about
the text on the page.
John Boyer: So should we contact
Alfresco about their use of XForms? It is news, but not as big news
as the XForms 1.1 implementation for Firefox.
Steven Pemberton: I will do
that.
John Boyer: We can combine the
adoption news with the adoption news from Nick.
Charlie Wiecha: I am preparing the
Tech Plenary talk.
John Boyer: I owe you slides.
John Boyer: Uli, have you started
yet?
Uli Lissé: Not yet,
sorry.
John Boyer: Take a recent module as a
basis and take chapter 11 as a basis and put that in as a file and
amend index.xml to include that file and that will get you a first
basic module to work on. From there, it's a matter of going through
that document and deciding. There's not a ton of work there; the
main thing is that you have to factor out relevance pruning and
data validation from that module. The submission module will assume
the existence of an instance. The validation and relevance modules
will add function to the submission module.
Uli Lissé: We talked about this
last week. I'm going to try to coin aditional events for validation
and pruning.
John Boyer: My comments were about the
document process, more low level. I see what you're saying.
John Boyer: This is a question from
Erik.
Steven Pemberton: It's because some
events get sent to the model, right?
John Boyer: Typically you'd create a
child action of the model.
Steven Pemberton: Yes, but you don't
have to do it that way.
John Boyer: So you wouldn't make model
a handler.
Steven Pemberton: Yes, you would put
ev:handler.
John Boyer: You wouldn't put just
ev:target. You'd also put ev:handler and probably ev:observer as
well, since you it would be a rarity that you would want to listen
to the parent of model. Is it a reasonable thing to do?
Leigh Klotz: It's somone else's spec
and it's well defined, so why not?
John Boyer: We don't allow them on
instance.
Leigh Klotz: Maybe that's not our
business.
Steven Pemberton: Why did we not allow
them?
Leigh Klotz: I remember why it was; it
was to prevent confusion about events targeted to instance elements
in the that other DOM which you can't do, but in practice I'm not
sure people are confused.
John Boyer: Actually, we allow ev:*
anywhere on common because common allows foreign attributes.
Leigh Klotz: We don't define the
behavior of XML events, right?
John Boyer: Right.
Leigh Klotz: So why are we putting
them in our spec at all? We should just allow them anywhere and
call out particular useful examples.
John Boyer: If we get rid of Erik's
specific thing that is causing him trouble, not mentioning the
events attributes on the model.
Leigh Klotz: You can but we should
point out that the common attributes allow ev:*, and that XForms
doesn't define XML Events behavior, so the places where ev:* is
explicitly listed in the spec are for convenience only.
John Boyer: I can do that. I want to
leave the events in the Schema because it calls attention to
particularly good places to put them, but they are allowed
everywhere common is allowed.
Action 2008-10-8.3: John Boyer to get rid of the language in the model element about ev:* attributes as the model element says common and events and should just say common, and add a note in common 3.2.1 that the common attributes allow ev:*, and that XForms doesn't define XML Events behavior, so the places where ev:* is explicitly listed in the spec are for reading convenience only.
John Boyer: Useful things to know:
currently in cancel or bubble phase, do you capture or bubble, etc.
Last night I was going through the agenda items for the F2F and
realized we've talked about going to XML Events 2. It doesn't say
anything about the properties, as it's a WD. Isn't that the right
place to address this problem? Steven?
Steven Pemberton: That sounds like a
last call comment.
John Boyer: So it's in last call
review. I guess I'm late.
Steven Pemberton: We haven't gone to
CR yet. Get as many generic things out of XForms into XML Events
2.
Action 2008-10-8.4: John Boyer to comment to XML Events 2 that bubbleable, cancelable, current phase and event target are valuable metadata for event context.
John Boyer: How do we re-invigorate
these modules? Can we write them together?
Steven Pemberton: That's not
necessarily unproductive.
John Boyer: We will have observers at
the meeting, so discussion material would be preferable.
Charlie Wiecha: I'm going to need
more of these.
John Boyer: Evaluation context needs
to be part of the instance module because it affects the in-scope
evaluation context. Also, I'm passing in the nodeset expression,
which is incorrect. It should have a nodeset binding.
Charlie Wiecha: I see where you're
going but I am not sure I have all of it.
John Boyer: We can spend some time
next week on the call.
Charlie Wiecha: Maybe we could revisit
and revalidate our granularity of modules and dependencies. I have
a fairly fuzzy picture of how these modules relate to each other
and drawing a diagram would help.
John Boyer: An architecture
diagram.
Charlie Wiecha: Something to capture
the relationships. We have a good idea but we're going slower than
we need to. Having a few larger modules in the first cut migth
help.
John Boyer: We have two at instance
data.
Charlie Wiecha: Then actions and
binding.
John Boyer: I agree it's been a useful
exercise.
John Boyer: For actions, the claim
is that a lot of it disappears with XML Events 2. It has a
container for a set of actions? Deferred update maybe goes to the
model module. So we could start with a model module.
Charlie Wiecha: We could collapse the
instance, instance++, actions, binding attributes. Is that too much
to do in the first pass?
John Boyer: Having relevant, readonly,
and calculate as separate modules makes it easy to refer to them in
streamlined syntax.
Charlie Wiecha: OK.
John Boyer: Can I just plug some
modules into hours and decide what we're talking about?
Charlie Wiecha: Seems reasonable.
John Boyer: And next?
Charlie Wiecha: Do we want to talk
about Future Features other than modularization?
John Boyer: We have to start to
recharter after this F2F or the next, for the end of 2009.
John Boyer: Without more spec editors,
we're going to have a devil of a time. I can't do all this work.
Maybe the last calls for CR will be shorter documents. A first WD
of 2.0 would be astounding. We need these to get rechartered. I
didn't understand why our charter went until 2009 and HTML5 went to
2010. But that's where we are. The three-fold strategy of
Ubiquity/AJAX, modularity, and streamlined syntax will move us
forward.
John Boyer: Where is our next
F2F?
Charlie Wiecha: In the UK; I will
provide space and Mark will host. I can't book the space until
three months before. Hursley is easier, but downtown is what Mark
preferred.
John Boyer: Steven, how long does
rechartering take?
Steven Pemberton: It often takes too
long.
John Boyer: It would be helpful to
have the 2.0 documents out then, first public working drafts.
Keith Wells: What are the hours of
the virtual day?
John Boyer: 9AM to 4PM eastern. We're
also doing extra teleconference time, 30 minuets.
Steven Pemberton: Are we having a call
on Wednesday?
John Boyer: That's the virtual
day.
Steven Pemberton: Wednesday and
Thursday.
John Boyer: See you then.