RE: how to: ordered collection of a Concept

Hi Marcia,
Thanks for clarifying the difference between MeSH and AAT.

Marcia, Vladimir,
In order to see if (and occasionally how) to carry this beyond notation and beyond label based ordering, it may be good to get AAT examples.
These should illustrate what AAT intends to use to set the ordering.

We should also make the objective clear:
- Is it sufficient that a modeling schema allows to consistently capture the ordering properties and that a rendering system can be configured to handle it.
   (This is my understanding for the iso-25964 schema to date)
- Must the (possibly multiple) ordering be represented in generic RDF constructs (rdf:List).
- Must a modeling schema detail the (possibly multiple) thesaurus orderings in dedicated RDF/S or OWL constructs.

Kind Regards,

Johan De Smedt 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ZENG, MARCIA [mailto:mzeng@kent.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, 10 November, 2013 01:14
> To: Johan De Smedt
> Cc: ZENG, MARCIA; vladimir.alexiev@ontotext.com; public-esw-thes@w3.org; Stella Dextre Clarke;
> Joan Cobb
> Subject: Re: how to: ordered collection of a Concept
> 
> Johan,
> Notations for AAT might not be so straight forward since it does not have a notation system. MeSH
> does.
> Let's think further and discuss more later.
> Marcia
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> > On Nov 9, 2013, at 5:44 PM, "Johan De Smedt" <johan.de-smedt@tenforce.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Marcia
> >
> > Thanks a lot for the explanation!
> >
> > I am wondering if and how we should advice on ordering.
> > - notation is foreseen on both Thesaurus Concept, on Thesaurus Array and on Thesaurus Group.
> > - notation is translated to skos:notation
> > So that can do the job if it is properly encoded (typically with a convention or with custom data
> types).
> > - The negative remark that could be made is that it is not a RDF or OWL only typing.
> >  So it requires Specific know-haw about the notation typing.
> >  (Compared to e.g. the rdf:List)
> > My personnel evaluation of this criticism would be that it an application knowing to make mixed
> orders of concepts and arrays needs to understand (distinguish and order) notation types.
> >
> > So the ISO 25964 compliant answer to Vladimir would be (my understanding) to use
> notation/skos:notation and document the used typing and ordering.
> > A TMS system should be configurable so
> > - the ordering properties can be defined (e.g. language specific pref-label, or notation, or rdfs:label
> or a combination with priorities)
> > - the ordering rules can be applied using the specified ordering (alphabetic, notation conversion +
> ordering, numeric, date-time, ...).
> >
> > Thanks to let me know if my understanding is correct.
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> >
> > Johan De Smedt
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ZENG, MARCIA [mailto:mzeng@kent.edu]
> >> Sent: Saturday, 09 November, 2013 15:31
> >> To: Johan De Smedt; vladimir.alexiev@ontotext.com; public-esw-thes@w3.org
> >> Cc: 'Stella Dextre Clarke'; Joan Cobb
> >> Subject: RE: how to: ordered collection of a Concept
> >>
> >> Hi, all,
> >> I may be answering out of the bigger context here. Just my two cents.
> >>
> >> 1. Orders of children issue is actually the issue of orders of siblings (the related concepts at the
> same
> >> level). We have raised this issue before to SKOS.
> >>
> >> Orders of siblings is necessary in a hierarchical classification system. Usually a notation scheme
> takes
> >> care of it.
> >> Any notation has both a semantic value and an ordinal value:
> >> The semantic value of a classification number is the subject or concept it stands for, e.g., 610
> Medicine
> >> (DDC).
> >> The ordinal value of a number of code places the subject into its determined rank in the scheme.
> >> There are about 10 common ways used to decide the orders of siblings (coordinate classes).
> >>
> >> In thesaurus' multilevel formats, the siblings are often only displayed by viewing the broader term.
> The
> >> order of the siblings are not as critical as that in a classification or taxonomy.
> >> However in some thesauri, the hierarchies are much deeper than others and the whole thesaurus is
> >> highly-structured, such as AAT and MeSH.
> >>
> >> 2. A related situation is the not-trully-poly-hierarchical cases. In AAT, one can see a concept always
> has
> >> a preferred parent, while in many cases also an 'additional parent'. So, it is not simply indicating one
> >> concept has two parents. It has to indicate which parent is preferred.
> >> See example in AAT: ID: 300265026 loutrophoros-hydriae.
> >> In TGN: ID: 7010273 Saint Petersburg (inhabited place).
> >> (The 'preferred' situation of parents is all coded clearly in the Getty vocabularies. )
> >>
> >> Marcia
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Johan De Smedt [johan.de-smedt@tenforce.com]
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 4:50 AM
> >> To: vladimir.alexiev@ontotext.com; public-esw-thes@w3.org
> >> Cc: 'Stella Dextre Clarke'; ZENG, MARCIA
> >> Subject: RE: how to: ordered collection of a Concept
> >>
> >> Hello Vladimir,
> >>
> >> Can you give an example illustrating the problem and approach you make with equivalentArray?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Kind Regards,
> >>
> >> Johan De Smedt
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Vladimir Alexiev [mailto:vladimir.alexiev@ontotext.com]
> >>> Sent: Friday, 08 November, 2013 16:43
> >>> To: public-esw-thes@w3.org
> >>> Cc: 'Stella Dextre Clarke'; 'Marcia Zeng'
> >>> Subject: how to: ordered collection of a Concept
> >>>
> >>> Some AAT *concepts* have ordered children (narrower concepts).
> >>> How can one represent this?
> >>> - I guess one could put the children in a skos:OrderedCollection that is "free floating" i.e. one
> that’s
> >> not
> >>> connected to anything. But TMSes will have a hard time figuring what this pattern means
> >>> - iso:ConceptArray allows you to put ordered children *under* a concept by using
> >>> iso:subordinateArray
> >>> - I propose an extension iso:equivalentArray that puts the array "next" to the concept.
> >>>
> >>> What do you think?
> >
> >
> >

Received on Sunday, 10 November 2013 08:42:48 UTC