RE: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y

Thank you Leonard,
I knew that JTC1 has some special status within ISO organization but I didn’t realize that freely available standards can only be published by JTC1 subcommittees.
My experience (probably, not typical) was that it was fairly easy to make a case for a standard to be made freely available - both parts 22 and 28 of ISO/IEC 14496 (that I worked on as a project editor) are available for free. What is really surprising though is that many folks don’t seem to realize that this is the case; about a year ago someone at ISO Secretariat asked me to provide them with additional marketing information because it turned out that ISO/IEC 14496-22 is one of their best-selling standards. Apparently, many folks just buy it with no regard for notification that says this standard can be downloaded from ITTF website.

Cheers,
Vladimir



From: Leonard Rosenthol [mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 9:31 AM
To: Levantovsky, Vladimir; MURATA Makoto; public-epub3@w3.org
Subject: RE: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y

So I looked into this, and here is what I learned:

The only group/organization that can have free standards is the JTC1 standards. The provision of standards for free is confined to certain projects developed by JTC1 that conform to strict conditions established by the ISO Council. JTC1, as you know is also an ISO/IEC committee that has special or different rules than those that we follow for ISO standards.


From: Levantovsky, Vladimir [mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky@monotype.com]
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 2:44 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>; MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp<mailto:eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>>; public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>
Subject: RE: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y

There are many standards that are available from ISO for free, you can see them all here:
http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstandards.iso.org%2Fittf%2FPubliclyAvailableStandards%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1ddfcfe27bbf44edf2ca08d4ddc445e5%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636377282449776183&sdata=UPNYoyAOjcFb60Pw57OYP3OehyykMgJoEyA7NbsHX7U%3D&reserved=0>

And, in my experience, ISO will make any standard available for free if the project editor makes a good case for it (and the subcommittee that developed a standard will back him/her up submitting a request to make a standard available for free. FYI, I did it for every edition of the OpenFont standard (ISO/IEC 14496-22), which you can see listed there in the list of standards.

Cheers,
Vlad


From: Leonard Rosenthol [mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com]
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 12:23 PM
To: MURATA Makoto; public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y

It’s a bit more complex than that – involving copyrights and ownership of the standard – but Makoto is correct that some standards can also be free.

Leonard

From: <eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>> on behalf of MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp<mailto:eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>>
Date: Monday, August 7, 2017 at 11:53 AM
To: "public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>" <public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y
Resent-From: <public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Monday, August 7, 2017 at 11:52 AM

Leonard and George,

2017-08-07 23:50 GMT+09:00 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>:
> I would like to suggest that the ISO specifications are made freely available
>
George, that is never going to happen given the current ISO infrastructure.  As you probably know, there is no cost to be a (voting!) subject matter expert on an ISO committee (although some countries impose fees to join the national standards bodies).  Because of this, ISO makes it $$ by charging for standards.   (this is reversed from W3C, where you need to pay to get a vote at the table, but then the standards are free).

Actually, if some spec is already freely available from a different organization,
we can request ISO to make an equivalent ISO spec freely available.

Here is an example.

1) Free from W3C

https://www.w3.org/TR/xml-model/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fxml-model%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeaa59a8adf2423d0d2408d4ddac6c7a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636377180009625410&sdata=ER9hKtbR8LotRg0aHrFDCfTTCyW8WNFNPPYyS5tGAaM%3D&reserved=0>

2) Not free from ISO

https://www.iso.org/standard/54793.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iso.org%2Fstandard%2F54793.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeaa59a8adf2423d0d2408d4ddac6c7a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636377180009625410&sdata=YJ%2Fqu%2FwabLMtF%2F8GZ7L9R4qr9CW8wEeH%2FXXRkJe2Ijc%3D&reserved=0>

3) Free from ISO

http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/c054793_ISO_IEC_19757-11_2011.zip<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstandards.iso.org%2Fittf%2FPubliclyAvailableStandards%2Fc054793_ISO_IEC_19757-11_2011.zip&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeaa59a8adf2423d0d2408d4ddac6c7a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636377180009625410&sdata=mB0sIVNYDIIkIoabcpnxziiEzIe964T6VqU9gZIaj3k%3D&reserved=0>

 There three documents are technically equivalent.

Regards,
Makoto



>in HTML
>
Going back to the first item, because they need to sell something, they need a solution that is self-contained.

However, since your real concern isn’t the format but the desire to have something that is accessible, you should know that we (TC171) have been discussing with them the needs for accessible standards and have been working with them to make all the PDFs PDF/UA compliant (since PDF/UA is an ISO standard – it would be good if they “drank their own champagne”).  In addition, their new publishing system, for all its faults, *could* produce an EPUB file as a secondary option to the PDF. That has also been discussed with them as well, and they are willing to consider it - but they need to find an equivalent “protection mechanism” to what they use on the PDFs before that can happen.

I am hopeful that as our work on PWP continues that we will be able to work with them to see the future of ISO publications be complaint PWPs in one or more profiles.

Leonard

From: "kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>" <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>
Date: Monday, August 7, 2017 at 10:02 AM
To: 'MURATA Makoto' <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp<mailto:eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>>, 'Avneesh Singh' <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>
Cc: "public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>" <public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y
Resent-From: <public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Monday, August 7, 2017 at 10:01 AM

Hello,

Regardless of the direction we take, I would like to suggest that the ISO specifications are made freely available in HTML. I believe that many ISO documents are only available at a cost in PDF. To promote accessibility we should avoid this restriction on our submission.

Best
George


From: eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com> [mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>] On Behalf Of MURATA Makoto
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 1:56 AM
To: Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>
Cc: public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y

Avneesh

2017-08-07 13:44 GMT+09:00 Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>:
Hi Makoto,

>From all the great information provided by you, I understood the following.
- The ISo drafting rules are quite different than W3C drafting rules. So, most probably we will have to re-draft EPUB accessibility specs for ISO if the current rules of ISO persist.

This is unlikely to change.  Japan does not intend to propose a change to
Directives, Part 2.

But the current editing procedure requires that (1) you use MS Word, (2) ITTF
creates XML from your Word doc, (3) ITTF then creates a Word doc and a
PDF doc from the XML, (4) ITTF then sends the Word and PDF files to you,
and (5) you will be asked to correct  many mistakes introduced during
this process in a very short time.  Japan intends to complain here.

- We should wait for October ISO meeting before we make decision on redrafting, because there is a possibility that ISO decide to change some rules in October.

At least, we hope that we will not be requested to follow the above
procedure.

The next question is what effect it have on us as EPUB 3 CG group.
- If we are looking for EPUB accessibility spec 1.0 to go for ISO then this will have an effect.
- But if we intend to work on ISO standardization of EPUB accessibility spec 1.1 then it may not be having much effect, because the new spec will cbe released in next year.
If the members invoke ISO to change rules in October, will ISO be able to settle its rules in 6 to 8 months?


Today I spoke with Prof. Ishikawa.  He is a member of the UN
Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities [1].  He
is also the chair of the Japanese government committee on the
Policies for Disabilities.

[1] https://www.un.org/development/desa/disabilities/conference-of-states-parties-to-the-convention-on-the-rights-of-persons-with-disabilities-2/9thsession.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.un.org%2Fdevelopment%2Fdesa%2Fdisabilities%2Fconference-of-states-parties-to-the-convention-on-the-rights-of-persons-with-disabilities-2%2F9thsession.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C79cc63761b4a431645d108d4dd9ce3bf%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636377113299294880&sdata=IJLtOwctDzT4J3YZUFNcoXFAzLTLMzkQP5W6vxNcd10%3D&reserved=0>

I explained to him that there is a plan to create an ISO/IEC
version of EPUB Accessibility.  He immediately asked whether
it will be an International Standard or Technical
Specification.  I said that the plan is to create a Technical
Specification.  He said that a Technical Specification will
not be considered as a de jure standard by the Japanese
government, and strongly requested an IS rather than a TS.

I thus would like the CG to create ISs for both EPUB 3.0.1 and
EPUB Accessibility.

Regards,
Makoto


With regards
Avneesh
From: MURATA Makoto
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 03:29
To: public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y

Leonard,

You are very right.  As far as I know, ITTF does not pay much attention
to what committees say.   I am hoping that they will pay more attention
to what member bodies (who pay) say.  It would be nice if member
bodies in the upcoming JTC1 plenary read the JTC 1 Project
Editors’ Forum Report (prepared by the SC22 chair, Rex Jaeschke)
in advance.

Regards,
Makoto

2017-08-07 4:49 GMT+09:00 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>:
Good luck with getting them to change their process!!   Two of my TCs have been trying to get them to change for years now, including have meetings with the people in charge to explain the technical problems in their current system.  Unfortunately, they were “conned” (my word choice) into purchasing a publishing system on which they spent a *lot* of $$ - and they are therefore unwilling to make another change (esp. since it would require them to almost completely toss this ‘new’ system).

Matt, you are however quite correct that something coming out of respec won’t comply with ISO guidelines…

Leonard

From: <eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>> on behalf of MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp<mailto:eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>>
Date: Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 11:29 AM
To: "public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>" <public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y
Resent-From: <public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 11:28 AM

Matt,

Unfortunately, the current editing process in ISO are "hopelessly broken",
as pointed out by ISO/IEC JTC 1 Project Editors’ Forum Report
(SC34 N2405).  We might want to wait for the next JTC1 plenary
in 2017 October, because member bodies (e.g., Japan) will argue
against ISO/IEC Information Technology Task Force (ITTF) and
try to change the current process.

Regards,
Makoto



2017-08-06 21:42 GMT+09:00 Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>>:
> In my understanding, outputs from the CG have no status in W3C and are thus free from W3C rules

That's what we should clear up. The documents have been converted to use respec, which requires certain things (status section, abstract, etc.) and generates others automatically (table of contents, references at the end of the document, etc.). I don't believe the output is fully compatible with ISO structure rules as I reviewed them.

I'd hate to have to maintain a document manually, although worst-case we might be able to post-process the respec output to excise unwanted parts and reshuffle.

Matt

From: eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com> [mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com] On Behalf Of MURATA Makoto
Sent: August 5, 2017 10:42 PM
To: public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y

Matt,

2017-08-06 11:01 GMT+09:00 Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>>:
Is the idea here that a copy of the 1.0 specification will be taken and submitted to ISO with these changes, which look like they don't change anything normatively?

This is possible.

Or are we supposed to prepare a 1.1 like this and publish it in W3C?

This is also possible.

If so, I wonder how some of the ISO requirements won't conflict with respec/W3C practices.

In my understanding, outputs from the CG have no status in W3C and
are thus free from W3C rules

Regards,
Makoto

Matt

From: eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com> [mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com] On Behalf Of MURATA Makoto
Sent: August 5, 2017 8:17 PM
To: public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>
Subject: [a11y] Editorial changes required for creating an ISO/IEC spec for EPUB a11y

Folks,

Since we cannot use the fast-track procedure or PAS procedure, we are
required to follow the drafting rules of ISO/IEC.  (Note: EPUB 3.0
did not follow them, since it was fast-tracked.)

ISO/IEC Directives Part 2: Principles to structure and draft documents
intended to become International Standards, Technical Specifications
or Publicly Available Specifications.

http://www.iso.org/sites/directives/2016/part2/index.xhtml#_idTextAnchor055<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iso.org%2Fsites%2Fdirectives%2F2016%2Fpart2%2Findex.xhtml%23_idTextAnchor055&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0d28638058994996038c08d4dcdfe584%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636376301595853117&sdata=70anc9k6sdA4hRVtvUr%2FrmCR7IkvcV%2BNx0y%2B5MYGpj4%3D&reserved=0>

I think that there are two significant changes.

First, we have to provide Foreword, Introduction, and Scope as
required by Directives Part 2.  This requires some work, although
we can use some text from "1. Overview" in EPUB A11Y 1.0.

Second, we have to use SHALL, MAY, and other modal verbs as required
by Directives Part 2.  Most notably, all MUSTs have to be replaced by
SHALLs.

Regards,
Makoto



--

Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake

Makoto



--

Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake

Makoto



--

Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake

Makoto



--

Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake

Makoto



--

Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake

Makoto