RE: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

> Wouldn’t the idea be for the author of the image to include that information in their asset?

 

I’m not saying you’d never want to do that, but in the case of sharing image alt text and descriptions, is it helpful to have that information embedded in the image when the creator doesn’t know how the image will be used? (Or doesn’t know how it will be used beyond their initial need.)

 

Consider a picture of a heart, to steal an example George brought up years ago when we were considering a database like this for the DIAGRAM description framework. The image could easily be used in both a high school biology textbook and in a medical textbook. Their alt texts and descriptions, however, would likely be significantly different. Context matters as it influences what information you’re supposed to get from the image. 

 

The image doesn’t have to be freely available to run into this problem, either. 

 

Matt

 

From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> 
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 4:52 PM
To: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>; 'Ken Jones' <ken@circularsoftware.com>
Cc: 'Reid, Wendy' <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>; public-epub-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

 

> if the idea is to share alt text and descriptions for (public domain) images

> 

Wouldn’t the idea be for the author of the image to include that information in their asset?   Sure, images already out there don’t have the info – but what direction do you want to push the industry?   Also, if you did want to refer to images – how do you do that?  URL?  Hash?  ISCC? Other?

 

 

> There’s the bigger problem of context that frustrates sharing. 

> The same image can convey significantly different information depending on what it’s being used for.

> 

That’s interesting, Matt…do you have an example?  

 

Leonard 

 

From: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com <mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com> >
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:37 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> >, 'Ken Jones' <ken@circularsoftware.com <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> >
Cc: 'Reid, Wendy' <wendy.reid@rakuten.com <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> >, public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>  <public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> >
Subject: RE: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.

 

> The goal should be, instead, to get the data embedded into the assets

 

I’m not sure this would be more helpful if the idea is to share alt text and descriptions for (public domain) images. There’s the bigger problem of context that frustrates sharing. The same image can convey significantly different information depending on what it’s being used for.

 

Matt

 

From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> > 
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 2:39 PM
To: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> >
Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> >; public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> 
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

 

Got to it from another device – VPNs don’t like you…

 

So it’s a centralized database of image metadata…Seems like the wrong approach on a number of levels.

 

1 – Centralization has a lot of legal and practical concerns, especially outside the US

2 – I don’t see how the data is useful when it is not connected in any way (that I can tell) to the actual asset.  The goal should be, instead, to get the data embedded into the assets – using modern approaches such as XMP and the new IPTC schemas for accessibility (https://iptc.org/news/iptc-announces-new-properties-in-photo-metadata-to-make-images-more-accessible/)

3 – It’s not clear how the data is to actually be used.  Are people expected to write their own applications, to the AirTable API, to search/retrieve the data?  At that times?  Are there any restrictions to doing so – geography, source domains, costs, etc??

 

That’s just my initial thoughts after a few minutes reading the document.

 

Leonard

 

From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> >
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 2:30 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> >
Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> >, public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>  <public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> >
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.

 

It is reachable. 

Others are reaching it. 

Maybe you have a security restriction?

 

Please contact me directly if you need help.

Thanks

Ken

 

Ken Jones

Director
Circular Software Limited
circularsoftware.com <https://www.circularsoftware.com/> 

ken@circularsoftware.com <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> 
+44 (0)7974 458642
@CircularKen <https://twitter.com/CircularKen> 
linkedin.com/in/kenjones <http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones> 

 

On 14 Apr 2023, at 19:22, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> > wrote:

 

Site not reachable ☹

 

https://circular.software/SIDD

 

From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> >
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 2:20 PM
To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> >
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> >, public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>  <public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> >
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.

 


<s_9D8635F5D892873C326C3F890419B7100B6F9874492714A21129B0167BD6A57A_1677828918862_SIDD_Description_Editor.png>



 <https://circular.software/SIDD> Simple Image Descriptions Database

 <https://circular.software/SIDD> circular.software

 

Here’s what we have so far… 

 

Thanks

Ken





Ken Jones

Director
Circular Software Limited
circularsoftware.com <https://www.circularsoftware.com/> 

ken@circularsoftware.com <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> 
+44 (0)7974 458642
@CircularKen <https://twitter.com/CircularKen> 
linkedin.com/in/kenjones <http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones> 





On 14 Apr 2023, at 18:40, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> > wrote:

 

We’ll reschedule that portion of the meeting, but continue with the rest. In the meantime are there any materials we can review? 

 

-Wendy 

 

From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> >
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM
To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> >
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> >, public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>  <public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> >
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.

Hi Wendy 

 

It is London Book Fair next week so I will be there at the  <https://www.publishers.org.uk/events/accessibility-charting-the-waters-at-london-book-fair/> Accessibility: Charting the Waters seminar on the 18th.

 

Can I suggest we reschedule this please?


Thanks

Ken

 

 <https://calendly.com/circularken/lbf> Let’s meet up at London Book Fair 2023!

 

Ken Jones

Director
Circular Software Limited
circularsoftware.com <https://www.circularsoftware.com/> 

ken@circularsoftware.com <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> 
+44 (0)7974 458642
@CircularKen <https://twitter.com/CircularKen> 
linkedin.com/in/kenjones <http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones> 






On 14 Apr 2023, at 17:45, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> > wrote:

 

 <mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com> @Ken Jones – are there any resources you can provide? 

 

From: Leonard Rosenthol < <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> lrosenth@adobe.com>
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 12:37 PM
To: Reid, Wendy < <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> wendy.reid@rakuten.com>,  <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> public-epub-wg@w3.org < <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> public-epub-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.

Is there any pre-read on this “SIDD” thing?

 

Leonard

 

From: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com <mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com> >
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 12:30 PM
To: public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>  <public-epub-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> >
Subject: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.

 

Hi all,

 

The FXL Accessibility Taskforce will be meeting Tuesday, April 18th at 9AM Boston time, or 13 UTC.

 

 <https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=FXL+Accessibility+Meeting+&iso=20230418T09&p1=250&ah=1> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=FXL+Accessibility+Meeting+&iso=20230418T09&p1=250&ah=1

 

Agenda: 

1. Reading order, Page Regions, introducing ‘SIDD’ (the Simple Image Descriptions Database) – Ken Jones
2. Accessible FXL Research Project from LIA [1]
3. What to do with the TF Work 

 

[1]  <https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/research-and-development/accessible-fixed-layout-epubs-a-new-research-project-by-fondazione-lia/> https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/research-and-development/accessible-fixed-layout-epubs-a-new-research-project-by-fondazione-lia/

 

Meeting information can be found here:  <https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8e109b5f-af50-43e9-ae99-9afff77b58bb/20230418T090000> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8e109b5f-af50-43e9-ae99-9afff77b58bb/20230418T090000

 

See you all Tuesday, 

 

Wendy