Re: FXL Accessibility (was Re: [Minutes] EPUB WG, 2nd vF2F day minutes 2021-10-29)

Hi all,

First, thanks for all of the excellent discussion, I’m glad to see interest in this area, it’s important.

I do want to clarify on some things that have been mentioned in the thread already:

Leonard, a few points:

  *   Thanks for sharing the information from PDF, while the challenges are somewhat similar, it’s not an option we’re exploring due to the lack of support or interest from content creators and reading systems, but there are definitely items we can take away like figures and such
  *   For InDesign, it would be good to hear from that team directly, if they find this document of use to them, we’re happy to get them involved. None of the guidance we are working on is new, we’re collecting existing production standards and practices already in use by content creators
  *   I highly recommend looking at the minutes from previous meetings, we’ve really heavily discussed these proposals we’re making, and plan to keep doing so to address concerns we know people have about alternates and the like.

Laurent:

  *   We’ll be looking at building up a CG task force for the proposals, as discussed during the F2F, though I think I already see huge interop problems with a solution like XSLT. I think we’re strongly in favour of using core web technologies and practices in combination with existing EPUB standards where we can

Let’s keep this energy going into the CG and future meetings of the TF, we still have lots to do, but this feedback is helpful.

Cheers,
Wendy

From: Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>
Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:47 AM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Cc: W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: FXL Accessibility (was Re: [Minutes] EPUB WG, 2nd vF2F day minutes 2021-10-29)

[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
What would be great is a common initiative, targeting a "single source" model that appears impossible today due to the absence of proper "FXL + accessible" authoring tools.

We should maybe restart the discussion (+ make it a specification) on what is required in EPUB FXL content documents to make them reflowable and accessible, e.g. by a simple XSLT?
- blocks must be entered in the XHTML document in their reading order
- headings must be correct
- images must be described, captions must be attached to the images
- ruby must be real ruby, not floating labels

what else? (no real need for page breaks, as one document = one page)

L


Le 3 nov. 2021 à 16:36, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> a écrit :

Just as we have continued to improve support for generating accessible reflowable EPUBs from InDesign – I would expect us to do the same with FXLs.  I think it’s simply a matter of “chicken and egg” – does the work of this group to define the best practices/standards for a11y in FXL proceed the creation or should we (Adobe) try to take the lead by exporting some things that we think will/do work?!?

Leonard

From: Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org<mailto:laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>>
Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:29 AM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: FXL Accessibility (was Re: [Minutes] EPUB WG, 2nd vF2F day minutes 2021-10-29)
Hi Leonard,

On the topic of alternate representations – specifically those that are prepared in advance – my recommendation is *DON’T*.  In addition to all the issues raised in the meeting, let me also add one that most of you don’t think about…user additions to content!  Think annotations & bookmarks!  They need to work on both the FXL and reflowable versions of the content, in reasonable and understandable ways.  Today Web Annots are targeted to a specific HTML document, which means that w/o some work (and going beyond the spec), they wouldn’t show on the alternate.  Even if it did work, would it be as meaningful if the content isn’t in the “same place”?   It’s a problem for both the annotation creator as well as the annotation presentation system.

You're totally right, there should be a solution which does not rely on an alternate representation. And your remark on annotations and bookmarks is up to the point.

The practical issue here is that most (if not all) EPUB3 FXL on the market are not properly accessible today.
The reason we always hear about is that EPUB designers don't master the accessibility tools available in their authoring studio.
And the ubiquitous authoring studio for EPUB FXL is today Adobe InDesign, in which accessibility tools appear to be hidden, more or less.

So ... is it simply a matter of tutorials? or do you think there is a chance that an evolution of InDesign could bring easy to use accessibility tools, so that accessible FXL can be exported from the software?

Best regards
Laurent