- From: D'Haenens Thomas <thomas.dhaenens@kb.vlaanderen.be>
- Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:30:31 +0000
- To: "public-dxwg-wg@w3.org" <public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <E01A0271-A98E-4F4B-903B-345972AECCFF@bz.vlaanderen.be>
We should be carefull not to get things mixed up (I like it all to be quite modular).
When I talk about core characteristics (and what I didn't mention before), I try to do so on two levels :
- a meta-level, defining eg the structure of the dataset
- a contentual level, denoting an intrinsic value within the dataset
That last one is actually one of my biggest concerns with DCAT. The level in which content is taken into account is not enough (my small personal opinion, mind :-)). Theme (as skos:concept which is a very abstract notion of an idea) and themeTaxonomy (as an instance of skos:conceptScheme) may be semantically correct and SHACL-proof etc but for me (as a librarian myself) much of the potential richness and interoperability just goes to waste with this abstract notion of contentual description. I might be mistaken (so correct me if I'm wrong) but I can't find a guideline or a recommendation stating eg to use an open and online ontology within the dataset's domain (and not just your local thesaurus or list). Only mentioning that would go a long way. Adding this ontology/term-URI (with their own metadata) as part of the Theme-object in DCAT would take us like lightyears ahead if globally applied.
Thinking further on the core-thing....
Adding a field to a dataset (or a chapter in a book, or a mergure of two organisations) changes the fabric, the nature itself of the object. Hence creating a new instance of it.
Changing the content of the dataset also changes the value of it (to whomever its worth may be applicable).
Within the realm of one instance, one can diversity to the level of version. That's to say not touching the core we defined (on those two levels). Implications are :
- adding data (not changing existing data) results in a new version within a given dataset (new date of publishing, ...)
- changing data results in a new dataset
- changing a relation (in terms of high-level ERD) from a dataset to another class (eg the URL to download the dataset changes domain) doesn't change the instance neither the version - only the relationship to the appropriate 'channel' gets updated
Taking your example, when the creator of the dataset updates the data in place it actually becomes a new dataset (since the contentual core fabric gets broken). Thus the article really relates to an instance of a dataset that isn't there anymore. We should be able to formalise that change somehow. The creator of the dataset should be aware that by doing this change, he/she really creates a new dataset. If that person chooses not to preserve the old one, he/she actually states "I don't want this dataset to be interoperable anymore" (which can be perfectly legitimate in its proper context).
Let's take a look at legislation. Laws are being changed all the time. Yet it's crucial to be able to return to a law at any given time in the past. The ELI-initiative eg (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Ajl0068) is aiming at preserving/defining that one legal truth at one point in time.
I'm probably straying too far right now :-), but I hope you'll catch some of my figments.
Cheers,
Op 22 jun. 2017 om 18:32 heeft Makx Dekkers <mail@makxdekkers.com<mailto:mail@makxdekkers.com>> het volgende geschreven:
Thomas,
I like your view that you can think of a dataset as having some ‘core’ characteristics – if those change, you have a new dataset, otherwise you might just update ‘in place’, with ideally some indication of the changes that were made. Or would you still keep both ‘versions’ online?
Now the challenge is of course to define those ‘core’ characteristics of a particular dataset. Is it the creator/publisher’s view, or should it also include the perspective of a (re)user?
For example, consider the case of an academic who writes a critical article about an error that he/she found in a published dataset. The article will include a link to the dataset. If the creator of the dataset then updates the data ‘in place’ to correct the error, all of a sudden, the critique is broken.
How to make sure that those things don’t happen?
Makx.
From: D'Haenens Thomas [mailto:thomas.dhaenens@kb.vlaanderen.be]
Sent: 22 June 2017 17:19
To: public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
Hi Peter, all,
I think this is a very general discussion. When do we have a new instance of something and when are we talking about another version/instance.
In my experience, there isn’t a magic solution.
When it comes to organizational dynamics, I usually rely on the formal regulations that give birth to a change. Especially in the public sector, one normally has a decree/law, an organizational decision or some kind of formal document.
In a classic physical (printed/written) work, you have editions, versions, and the like. I believe a dataset isn’t so different.
I believe clarity is crucial.
IMHO, first of all, at the heart of things we have to decide what really identifies a concept, let’s say a dataset. We omit anything that’s not crucial. (‘what is core’) When that core changes, you have a new dataset (with a new identifier).
When the core stays intact, but something around it changes (lastUpdated, publishedBy, …), we define a new life phase of the object (a ‘version’ of an instance).
Starting from that core we have many relations to other things.
Relating to other classes implies we have both a history on the part of the class and on the part of the relationship. The same goes for circular relationships (organisations, services, datasets can be ‘adopted’ in their child-parent-relationship).
So, eg. the structure of a dataset changes (and we could have decided the structure is a critical element of a dataset), that implies we have a new instance. Data is added to a dataset – with no structural changes – it’s simply a new version with some metadata that changed.
To go a step further, in the spirit of any base registry, you enable keeping track of history on any relationship and on any class. Then, within any implementation, you choose what to capture (and you are aware what you don’t capture).
Taking it back to classic printed books, a 4th edition of Goethe’s Faust isn’t a new instance with regards to the 3rd ed. It’s simply a new version. You could as easily rebind the book, creating also a new version.
The some goes, as said, for organizational dynamics, …
Always happy to have some discussion regarding this topic ☺.
Cheers,
Thomas
From: Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot<mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot> [mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot]
Sent: donderdag 22 juni 2017 16:37
To: andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu<mailto:andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu>
Cc: marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com<mailto:marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com>; martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com<mailto:martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com>; makx@makxdekkers.com<mailto:makx@makxdekkers.com>; kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>; david.browning@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com>; public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
Thanks for pointing this out Andrea … it certainly could be helpful. Although this is something that crops up frequently in the spatial data world, you’ll see from the school illustration that I gave that it is a regular occurrence in organisational dynamics too.
From: andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu<mailto:andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu> [mailto:andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu]
Sent: 22 June 2017 15:15
To: Winstanley FP (Peter)
Cc: marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com<mailto:marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com>; martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com<mailto:martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com>; makx@makxdekkers.com<mailto:makx@makxdekkers.com>; kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>; david.browning@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com>; public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
Hi, Peter.
> the other provenance pattern that we have which is tricky relates to things like property
> or schools or fields (land parcel units) where we see splitting or clumping and so the
> update involves new entities that can include the old one (e.g. one house gets split into
> two. The identifier for the old house is retained, but it now contains two new houses. It
> is possible that at some later date the two are joined back into one. Same happens with
> schools, fields and so on) I really don’t know the best practice for this and would
> appreciate a side discussion if anyone’s interested.
Just to note that this issue – versioning of the things being described by data – was subject to discussion in the Spatial Data on the Web WG, and it is addressed by a specific Best Practice (BP11):
https://www.w3.org/TR/sdw-bp/#desc-changing-properties
I wonder whether this BP could provide some guidance.
Andrea
----
Andrea Perego, Ph.D.
Scientific / Technical Project Officer
European Commission DG JRC
Directorate B - Growth and Innovation
Unit B6 - Digital Economy
Via E. Fermi, 2749 - TP 262
21027 Ispra VA, Italy
https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/
----
The views expressed are purely those of the writer and may
not in any circumstances be regarded as stating an official
position of the European Commission.
From: Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot<mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot> [mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot]
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 4:04 PM
To: david.browning@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com>; public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Cc: marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com<mailto:marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com>; martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com<mailto:martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com>; makx@makxdekkers.com<mailto:makx@makxdekkers.com>; kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>; PEREGO Andrea (JRC-ISPRA)
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
the other provenance pattern that we have which is tricky relates to things like property or schools or fields (land parcel units) where we see splitting or clumping and so the update involves new entities that can include the old one (e.g. one house gets split into two. The identifier for the old house is retained, but it now contains two new houses. It is possible that at some later date the two are joined back into one. Same happens with schools, fields and so on) I really don’t know the best practice for this and would appreciate a side discussion if anyone’s interested.
From: david.browning@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com> [mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com]
Sent: 22 June 2017 15:00
To: Winstanley FP (Peter); public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Cc: marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com<mailto:marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com>; martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com<mailto:martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com>; makx@makxdekkers.com<mailto:makx@makxdekkers.com>; kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>; andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu<mailto:andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
Yes, we have that pattern/behaviour/feature too. Generally we support that by retaining a history of changes within the data that’s being exchanged – its sometimes important to know that you were wrong (or misinformed) so you can explain the decision you made..... That does risk it getting very complex and probably domain specific.
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
David Browning
Platform Technology Architect
Thomson Reuters
Phone: +41(058) 3065054
Mobile: +41(079) 8126123
david.browning@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com>
thomsonreuters.com<http://thomsonreuters.com/>
From: Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot<mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot> [mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot]
Sent: 22 June 2017 15:45
To: Browning, David (TRGR); public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Cc: marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com<mailto:marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com>; martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com<mailto:martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com>; makx@makxdekkers.com<mailto:makx@makxdekkers.com>; kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>; andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu<mailto:andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
In the statistical areas we have lots of the ‘more data’ situation (all these longitudinal datasets) but sometimes (e.g. with pupil statistics where there can be an exam result that on appeal gets adjusted in grade) the ‘more data’ can be accompanied by a revision of what was previously there
From: david.browning@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com> [mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com]
Sent: 22 June 2017 14:39
To: public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Cc: marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com<mailto:marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com>; martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com<mailto:martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com>; makx@makxdekkers.com<mailto:makx@makxdekkers.com>; Winstanley FP (Peter); kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>; andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu<mailto:andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
In my experience, this scenario – where a data publisher makes available a sequence of update files that encode incremental changes from some initialising “complete” publication – is the pre-dominant pattern of data exchange in the financial information domain (outside the streaming/realtime data delivery) so it’s one that we’re extremely interested in. We’d like to be able to leverage DCAT as much as possible though clearly we may be extending into a more specialised vocabulary beyond what’s appropriate for inclusion in the DCAT standard itself. As an example, we’d like to be able to automatically process the sequence of files by using the metadata as configuration information so that a data consumer could create a local replica of the latest state of the published data. Our current thinking actually aims to handle this at the dct:Distribution level – though this is still active work and we haven’t yet settled on a definite approach.
As Andrea says, from a data consumer’s perspective, there’s some kind of link here with how service-based access might be modelled, since in my experience that’s often used to give access to a ‘latest state/current value’ copy of the data. [Of course, that might not be the direction the WG takes....]
So I’d like to see this considered as a potential use case for discussion till we have a fuller understanding of the landscape.
Last comment: we tend to think of this kind of change - “more data” – as somewhat distinct from version changes. A version change typically indicates something potentially more disruptive to a consumer than an update file. And, yes, there is some ambiguity in that distinction – but in practice it’s been a useful distinction in our environment.
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
David Browning
Platform Technology Architect
Thomson Reuters
Phone: +41(058) 3065054
Mobile: +41(079) 8126123
david.browning@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:david.browning@thomsonreuters.com>
thomsonreuters.com<http://thomsonreuters.com/>
From: andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu<mailto:andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu> [mailto:andrea.perego@ec.europa.eu]
Sent: 22 June 2017 14:15
To: public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Cc: marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com<mailto:marvin.frommhold@eccenca.com>; martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com<mailto:martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com>; makx@makxdekkers.com<mailto:makx@makxdekkers.com>; Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot<mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot>; kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
I think it may be worth considering whether the scenario outlined by Karen ("incremental updates"?) relates also to the notion of dcat:Distribution. In particular, for the mechanism used to for synchronising data version, I see some relationship with the use cases concerning the modelling of service-based data access.
Andrea
----
Andrea Perego, Ph.D.
Scientific / Technical Project Officer
European Commission DG JRC
Directorate B - Growth and Innovation
Unit B6 - Digital Economy
Via E. Fermi, 2749 - TP 262
21027 Ispra VA, Italy
https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ec.europa.eu_jrc_&d=DwMGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=SX6sxEGBIuiEtjQTAWz7jTpuOC0f5DcH79errOWxM8RN6gOsHdAxWfl9GTTkalJj&m=HNtxqmdvLjHJ6tDtUN0D71McOaqYoN3CtITnvzqcPmg&s=VFZ5l54iFiCMEum8wIpiZSpB2JHnIMQ7MRrSEdMlAiw&e=>
----
The views expressed are purely those of the writer and may
not in any circumstances be regarded as stating an official
position of the European Commission.
From: Martin Brümmer [mailto:martin.bruemmer@eccenca.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 11:35 AM
To: public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Cc: Marvin Frommhold
Subject: Re: Question for DCAT "experts"
Hi there,
a colleague of mine, Marvin Frommhold, is researching versioning in the context of RDF and Linked Data. He contributes the following points:
The following two documents provide a basic introduction to versioning of datasets:
* Papakonstantinou, Vassilis et al. “Versioning for Linked Data: Archiving Systems and Benchmarks.” BLINK@ ISWC. users.ics.forth.gr, 2016. Web.<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ceur-2Dws.org_Vol-2D1700_paper-2D05.pdf&d=DwMGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=SX6sxEGBIuiEtjQTAWz7jTpuOC0f5DcH79errOWxM8RN6gOsHdAxWfl9GTTkalJj&m=HNtxqmdvLjHJ6tDtUN0D71McOaqYoN3CtITnvzqcPmg&s=-ToimaJTj9bR0AuWNhNZ00_s2nfj0f0YTogpBj-wxdc&e=>
* Section 2 of this paper provides an introduction of different archiving strategies.
* Gray, Alasdair J. G. et al. “Dataset Descriptions: HCLS Community Profile.” Interest group note, W3C (May 2015) http://www.w3.org/TR/hcls-dataset (2015): n. pag. Print.<https://www.w3.org/TR/hcls-dataset/>
* A W3C Interest Group Note that, among other things, discusses requirements for dataset versioning.
* "The Data Catalog Vocabulary (DCAT) [DCAT<https://www.w3.org/TR/hcls-dataset/#DCAT>] is used to describe datasets in catalogs, but does not deal with the issue of dataset evolution and versioning."
He agrees that change sets are related to versioning in that a version can be described as a set of changes. Fully realized, this allows very granular tracking of dataset evolution. Makx point is important here: These changes are granular descriptions about the evolving content of a dataset, where DCAT so far does little to describe the data itself. If DCAT started to describe the content and structure of the data, this would be a considerable expansion of its scope.
The question if a set of changes constitute a new dataset or if a whole database is a dataset is complicated to me, because I understand instances of dcat:Dataset as conceptual descriptions of datasets, largely independent of the structure of the underlying data. In that sense, a database or a web service independent of the query can also be datasets. Limiting the data retrieved from it by some API call or SQL query could then create a new dataset fully contained in the first one.
cheers,
Martin
Am 22/06/17 um 11:00 schrieb Makx Dekkers:
Yes, I agree it is. Updating 'in place' is a case where the publisher decides that a change does not create a new Dataset.
I find Karen's suggestion to treat a 'database' as a 'dataset' interesting -- I have always thought of a database as closer to a dcat:Catalog.
Makx.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot<mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot> [mailto:Peter.Winstanley@gov.scot]
Sent: 22 June 2017 10:52
To: mail@makxdekkers.com<mailto:mail@makxdekkers.com>; public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
isn't a change set (like a diff) just a special case of versioning?
-----Original Message-----
From: Makx Dekkers [mailto:mail@makxdekkers.com]
Sent: 22 June 2017 09:47
To: public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Question for DCAT "experts"
As far as I remember from the initial work on DCAT, a Dataset is considered to be a kind of blob. Nothing is said about what goes on 'inside' a Dataset. The only thing you see on the outside is the modification date but you don't know what has changed inside.
Makx
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Coyle [mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net]
Sent: 21 June 2017 17:31
To: public-dxwg-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-dxwg-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Question for DCAT "experts"
Many of you know DCAT quite well, and I'm new to it, so I'm taking the lazy way and directing this as a question to you.
I see in DCAT that there are properties that define frequency and update dates. The update date is
"Most recent date on which the dataset was changed, updated or modified."
The library world has a number of databases that are updated "in place".
For anyone receiving updates, the updates do not include the entire file, only those records added, changed, or deleted since some set time.
Is this covered by DCAT? If not, I will add a use case and we can discuss.
Thanks,
kc
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kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net> http://kcoyle.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__kcoyle.net&d=DwMGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=SX6sxEGBIuiEtjQTAWz7jTpuOC0f5DcH79errOWxM8RN6gOsHdAxWfl9GTTkalJj&m=HNtxqmdvLjHJ6tDtUN0D71McOaqYoN3CtITnvzqcPmg&s=PEF3YuzzKpCupmPY7NjFyFh0zf3uaWiV484O7rPeRbs&e=>
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Received on Thursday, 22 June 2017 17:31:11 UTC